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???
12/27/10 16:46
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#180302 - Not at all
Responding to: ???'s previous message
No, I have not failed to distinguis between niche and bigger market - and don't call it "consumer" because it need not be. Even industry, military, automotive are looking at COTS - but not COTS designed for "consumer" quality levels, as you might find when you buy the cheapest CD player or battery charger at an outlet.

If you have a product that you expect to sell 10 of, or maybe 10/year, you can normally buy extra components directly when you produce the first series - or when you get the last-order notification. And the reason is that a customer who buys such products knows he has to pay a lot to receive such specialized hardware. Some of the extra money to cover the development costs. And some to cover the availability costs.

The thing is that the market isn't driven by special-case products selling in tens/year. So component manufacturers can't spend money on second-sourcing components when 99% of the users of the components will reevaluate their production costs every 18 months and plans to jump ship if they can save $0.50 by using a different component (which does not imply "consumer" or "low-quality" or similar).

Richards post did say "any developer". And it really is not true that "any developer" would chose components based on second-sourcing, for the simple reason that the bulk of all production are not of products where it is meaningful to stick with a specific component or supplier for longer times.

It really does matter what the customer wants to pay for. The customer who wants to pay 5 times the price to get the same product delivered 5 or 10 years from now can get that. But the simplest solution to that problem is to use the huge difference between sell price and production price to stock up on all components so you can make more production runs at a later time. Why else charge 5 times more for the product?

Most customers instead tries to figure out what their "standard" needs are, so that they can have multiple COTS solutions for the backbone of their needs. They may then be able to live with a specific 4-20mA sensor going off the market. Because they can see most of their 4-20mA sensors as COTS products. And they can see the equipment that reads the value from the 4-20mA sensor and reports the values in as COTS products. As long as they get a standardized protocol for how to configure the equipment and what the returned values looks like.

In the end, the bulk of all products tries to standardize on multiple suppliers of a service or a protocol, allowing the product owner to not need to worry about multiple suppliers of specific components. So the majority of designers can focus on how to build a product that is economical to produce compared to the price the customer is willing to pay, and that has a quality level that is matching the quality level the customer wants to pay for. But the majority of developers don't need to consider any 10 year availability from multiple component manufacturers.

It is the ability to standardize on a service instead of on a component that have lead to the huge technological acceleration. Our embedded products can solve more and more problems, while consuming less power and requiring smaller, easier to mount, boxes. 20 years ago, a bigger PLD really was big. And you had to send someone out with the car to reconfigure it. Today, you have a crypto key to be allowed to access it and tweek the parameters on-the-fly. Most industries don't want to buy more of the 20 year old PLC. It's worth their money to replace them with new equipment. And for the situations where it's too much work to switch PLC, they get large loads of replaced PLC that they can use as spare parts. All worth it because of the savings they got from replacing other PLC.

In the end, we are talking about an economical driving force. That is a driving force that are not much effected by the "eddy currents" you get from a few products sold in tens. And so, it isn't a driving force that makes it meaningful for "any developer" to spend too much time requiring second-source availability.

Why do PIC processors sell? Why do AVR processors sell? Why do most ARM processors sell? Millions and millions of processors that doesn't have any second-source supplier. They are not used by developers who have failed to distinguis between niche and consumer. But by developers who knows that they can stock up if their product is niche. And they don't need second-source if their product isn't niche.

So nothing DRAMATICALLY about it, at all.

So haven't I been involved in products where critcal components have stopped being produced? Yes! Ever had thousands of components in stock to be able to produce after the component was dropped? Yes! Haven't that resulted in problems? Yes! Would it have been better to have had second-source supplies and just be able to continue with an unchanged product? No - in all cases have the redesigned product either drastically reduced the production costs, or added significant functionality improvements. Even for a product expected to sell in a couple of hundreds, a redesign can save large amounts of money. Or result in new markets that was originally not thought about.

You are basically complaining about me generalizing about mass-production. But you did fail to notice that my post was complaining about the generalizing that second-sourcing is a general need. That is a DRAMATICALL difference ;)

List of 103 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
Migrating to AVR            01/01/70 00:00      
   8051-replacement            01/01/70 00:00      
      Yep, I agree            01/01/70 00:00      
         Toolchain            01/01/70 00:00      
            free compilers            01/01/70 00:00      
               GCC            01/01/70 00:00      
               Free ARM compilers            01/01/70 00:00      
                  "Free" vs "Free"            01/01/70 00:00      
   faster '51 derivatives in DIL/PLCC & availability            01/01/70 00:00      
      Tired of hanging around with 5 mips            01/01/70 00:00      
         Re: Tired of hanging around with 5 Mips            01/01/70 00:00      
            experiences prototyping with smd's            01/01/70 00:00      
               Prototype SMD            01/01/70 00:00      
            Nice, but where to buy and how much?            01/01/70 00:00      
               Re: where to buy and how much?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Yeah, but....            01/01/70 00:00      
                     I agree            01/01/70 00:00      
                        re the XA            01/01/70 00:00      
                     How many 51' compilers make use of the 51's dual DPTR            01/01/70 00:00      
               You must live on a very interesting corner!            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Ha,ha, AVR are ubiquitus            01/01/70 00:00      
                     HUH??            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics            01/01/70 00:00      
                           I think            01/01/70 00:00      
                        'F120            01/01/70 00:00      
                           "bunchload"            01/01/70 00:00      
                              re: bunchload            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Youse guys in Old Blightly            01/01/70 00:00      
         Prototyping SMD's            01/01/70 00:00      
            Hand-made PCBs with hand-soldered SMDs            01/01/70 00:00      
            SMD's            01/01/70 00:00      
               Well, that's nice, but not necessary.            01/01/70 00:00      
            a very general - and accurate - comment ...            01/01/70 00:00      
               apprehension            01/01/70 00:00      
   nearby            01/01/70 00:00      
      'jumping' from the '51            01/01/70 00:00      
         AVR update            01/01/70 00:00      
            the chip does not crash            01/01/70 00:00      
               Lockup etc            01/01/70 00:00      
                  increase the clock until lockup            01/01/70 00:00      
                     undefined behaviour            01/01/70 00:00      
                     NO, they do not recommend it            01/01/70 00:00      
                        simultaneous posts            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Overclocking            01/01/70 00:00      
                     This is simply an error in judgment            01/01/70 00:00      
                        all bets are off            01/01/70 00:00      
                     overclocking            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Yeah, okay            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Neeed for speeed            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Because of this...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Missing the point            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    missing the point?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Modern derivatives            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 hogwash            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 I'm not sure you're on track here ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Hi Richard            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       the problem with AVR's is that they're ATMEL only            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          That's one general and one personal problem            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Yes, that's what it is ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Second source not so important anymore            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   It's not as convenient now as it once was            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Free tools only have investment in knowledge            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         again. Per            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Not at all            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         it's not just the tools            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            "Best code"            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               There are too many definitions of "best"            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               Don't go for best            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   yes and no            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Single-source chips vs single-source architecture            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 cross purposes            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    DSP PROCS            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       gp ahead, stay behind the curve            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Got to disagree there,...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             I do not consider 'luck' a design parameter            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Flying leads            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       re: DSP PROCS            01/01/70 00:00      
                           100MHz 32-bit ARM            01/01/70 00:00      
                              The Trap...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 talking out of both sides of the mouth            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 "on the DSP level"            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Often hand-optimized assembler available            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Misunderstood me            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Cross talk            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       What kind            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       nobody has suggested            01/01/70 00:00      
                           no, you are not            01/01/70 00:00      
                           there are '51s with MACs            01/01/70 00:00      
                              and...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 yes and            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 He wants Plastic Dips            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    very few and            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    the 33 mips DS89C450 is in DIP if you want            01/01/70 00:00      
            no such thing as "Best"            01/01/70 00:00      
               '51 weaknesses outweigh the AVR            01/01/70 00:00      
                  similiar            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Quite so            01/01/70 00:00      
                     3, 4, 5            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Horses for courses            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Have you considered using a DSP?            01/01/70 00:00      
   I'll be off too, but not to AVR            01/01/70 00:00      
      A Guess            01/01/70 00:00      
         Low volume            01/01/70 00:00      

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