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???
12/27/10 14:40
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#180297 - Second source not so important anymore
Responding to: ???'s previous message
Richard said:
The fact that the architecture is single-sourced should give any developer pause.

Not so sure.

If you look around, you'll find that a huge percentage of all electronics in production contains a number of single-source components.

Since a number of years, the sharing of designs between manufacturers have almost totally died away.

So the electronics may contain single-sourced DC/DC converters from Linear. Single-sourced ARM chips from NXP. Single-sourced CAN transceivers from xx. Single-sourced FECs from ...

30 years ago, you produced a product for 10 years or more with zero hardware changes.

Today, you redesign the same product every 12 to 24 months, because you need to make use of the latest components just to cut costs. Producing the same hardware for 10 years will not let you cut the production prices with 20-30% each year. Something you need to do today, just to be able to keep your market shares without having to sell at a loss.

It is fewer and fewer niches where you can charge stiff overprices for a product just because you call it "industrial".

So what does it matter if the CAN controller has multiple sources? The CAN controller gets thrown away and moved into the processor, just requiring a trasceiver chip outside. The network controllers gets moved into the processor. The memory gets moved inside. The external UARTS gets integrated. The prioritizing interrupt controller.

In the end, we end up with very few chips driven by C or C++ programs (to make sure that as few lines of code as possible needs to be rewritten when changing target hardware). And the main difference in quality is the design of the power supply and how well all inputs/outputs are isolated and protected.

But in the end - todays product cycles are not so affected by second source supplies. A far worse problem is delays in availability of the new components, since each new hw revision brings in one or more components that are in alpha or beta stage when the development starts, and that will go "live" about the same time as the product is about to start being manufactured. So while backup plans for phased out components was very important 20 years ago, backup plans for delayed introduction of components may be more important today.

One thing that follows from the above, is that you need to have quite large market shares, since you can't live 10 years on your product certifications. You need a large yearly volume to take the cost of constantly having products tested according to different standards.

About Atmel - my worst problem with them was that we had to make do with Mega48 chips because their Mega88 chip got significantly delayed. No fun to have to squeeze the program in to 50% flash, 50% RAM, 50% EEPROM when you had originally selected the Mega88 as the best fit... It seriously hurt the maintainability of the software.

List of 103 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
Migrating to AVR            01/01/70 00:00      
   8051-replacement            01/01/70 00:00      
      Yep, I agree            01/01/70 00:00      
         Toolchain            01/01/70 00:00      
            free compilers            01/01/70 00:00      
               GCC            01/01/70 00:00      
               Free ARM compilers            01/01/70 00:00      
                  "Free" vs "Free"            01/01/70 00:00      
   faster '51 derivatives in DIL/PLCC & availability            01/01/70 00:00      
      Tired of hanging around with 5 mips            01/01/70 00:00      
         Re: Tired of hanging around with 5 Mips            01/01/70 00:00      
            experiences prototyping with smd's            01/01/70 00:00      
               Prototype SMD            01/01/70 00:00      
            Nice, but where to buy and how much?            01/01/70 00:00      
               Re: where to buy and how much?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Yeah, but....            01/01/70 00:00      
                     I agree            01/01/70 00:00      
                        re the XA            01/01/70 00:00      
                     How many 51' compilers make use of the 51's dual DPTR            01/01/70 00:00      
               You must live on a very interesting corner!            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Ha,ha, AVR are ubiquitus            01/01/70 00:00      
                     HUH??            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics            01/01/70 00:00      
                           I think            01/01/70 00:00      
                        'F120            01/01/70 00:00      
                           "bunchload"            01/01/70 00:00      
                              re: bunchload            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Youse guys in Old Blightly            01/01/70 00:00      
         Prototyping SMD's            01/01/70 00:00      
            Hand-made PCBs with hand-soldered SMDs            01/01/70 00:00      
            SMD's            01/01/70 00:00      
               Well, that's nice, but not necessary.            01/01/70 00:00      
            a very general - and accurate - comment ...            01/01/70 00:00      
               apprehension            01/01/70 00:00      
   nearby            01/01/70 00:00      
      'jumping' from the '51            01/01/70 00:00      
         AVR update            01/01/70 00:00      
            the chip does not crash            01/01/70 00:00      
               Lockup etc            01/01/70 00:00      
                  increase the clock until lockup            01/01/70 00:00      
                     undefined behaviour            01/01/70 00:00      
                     NO, they do not recommend it            01/01/70 00:00      
                        simultaneous posts            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Overclocking            01/01/70 00:00      
                     This is simply an error in judgment            01/01/70 00:00      
                        all bets are off            01/01/70 00:00      
                     overclocking            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Yeah, okay            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Neeed for speeed            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Because of this...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Missing the point            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    missing the point?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Modern derivatives            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 hogwash            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 I'm not sure you're on track here ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Hi Richard            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       the problem with AVR's is that they're ATMEL only            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          That's one general and one personal problem            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Yes, that's what it is ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Second source not so important anymore            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   It's not as convenient now as it once was            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Free tools only have investment in knowledge            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         again. Per            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Not at all            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         it's not just the tools            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            "Best code"            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               There are too many definitions of "best"            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               Don't go for best            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   yes and no            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Single-source chips vs single-source architecture            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 cross purposes            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    DSP PROCS            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       gp ahead, stay behind the curve            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Got to disagree there,...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             I do not consider 'luck' a design parameter            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Flying leads            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       re: DSP PROCS            01/01/70 00:00      
                           100MHz 32-bit ARM            01/01/70 00:00      
                              The Trap...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 talking out of both sides of the mouth            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 "on the DSP level"            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Often hand-optimized assembler available            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Misunderstood me            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Cross talk            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       What kind            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       nobody has suggested            01/01/70 00:00      
                           no, you are not            01/01/70 00:00      
                           there are '51s with MACs            01/01/70 00:00      
                              and...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 yes and            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 He wants Plastic Dips            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    very few and            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    the 33 mips DS89C450 is in DIP if you want            01/01/70 00:00      
            no such thing as "Best"            01/01/70 00:00      
               '51 weaknesses outweigh the AVR            01/01/70 00:00      
                  similiar            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Quite so            01/01/70 00:00      
                     3, 4, 5            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Horses for courses            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Have you considered using a DSP?            01/01/70 00:00      
   I'll be off too, but not to AVR            01/01/70 00:00      
      A Guess            01/01/70 00:00      
         Low volume            01/01/70 00:00      

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