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???
12/19/10 11:30
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Msg Score: +1
 +1 Good Answer/Helpful
#180211 - Overclocking
Responding to: ???'s previous message
I bet most (all) chips can do 30MHz.

But a very important aspect is that Atmel specifies 20MHz. And that is a frequency that Atmel claims is safe within a specified voltage range and within a specified temperature range.

Most chips can be run at a higher clock frequency if slightly overvolted. But have you tried running the AVR chip at lowest specified voltage? Have you tried it at highest allowed temperature where the internal temperature from the chip will add more heat than the test conditions Atmel used?

30MHz with the chip is something you can play with on your desktop at home/office, when the chip is powered with a laboratory power supply. Not something you can rely on when the chip is in a vehicle or other environments where you don't have control over the temperature or the amount of noise on the power lines.

The reason lots of hobbyists can overclock their PC machines is that they can - to some extent - control the environment stricter than the general test conditions the chip/motherboard/PC manufacturer may require. Using a 1kg cu HSF or maybe water cooling means you can push a chip further.

But an important aspect is that even if you do control the environment and get a pushed chip to run stable, there's a second thing to remember. Excessive heat or excessive currents, through some critical paths on the chip may significantly affect the ageing process. It is well known that overclocked PC processors may run stable for months or years before suddenly starting to hang. The owner must then step-by-step reduce the voltage/frequency just to maintain stability - sometimes the overclocked chip starts to require lower speeds than the specification says, just to behave. Just because of degrading of the chip.

So it's very important to separate what is ok to do for a hobbyist, and what is ok to do for commercial projects. A hobbyist may break things but will only hurt himself. And the hobbyist is expected to understand that the probability of failure will be higher when pushing things past recommended limits.

If a manufacturer have said that clock speed X will be released in Q2, then a commercial company may decide to work with overclocked chips in Q1 just to be able to test source code and learn the timing implications of running at a higher speed. As long as they don't ship the overclocked product, or assume that they can compute reliability figures from the overclocked product. A manufacturer that has a roadmap with multiple speeds may release the higher speed after having tested a longer time just to make sure. Or they may have binned chips before having enough chips to sell. Or they may have needed to stricted up the manufacturing process to get less variances. Or they may have had to redesign critical parts of the circuit after careful analysis. But a customer doesn't know, and can't rely on such things. Maybe, just maybe, the manufacturer just binned chips and the customer did receive a chip that should have been binned as faster. Maybe.

List of 103 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
Migrating to AVR            01/01/70 00:00      
   8051-replacement            01/01/70 00:00      
      Yep, I agree            01/01/70 00:00      
         Toolchain            01/01/70 00:00      
            free compilers            01/01/70 00:00      
               GCC            01/01/70 00:00      
               Free ARM compilers            01/01/70 00:00      
                  "Free" vs "Free"            01/01/70 00:00      
   faster '51 derivatives in DIL/PLCC & availability            01/01/70 00:00      
      Tired of hanging around with 5 mips            01/01/70 00:00      
         Re: Tired of hanging around with 5 Mips            01/01/70 00:00      
            experiences prototyping with smd's            01/01/70 00:00      
               Prototype SMD            01/01/70 00:00      
            Nice, but where to buy and how much?            01/01/70 00:00      
               Re: where to buy and how much?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Yeah, but....            01/01/70 00:00      
                     I agree            01/01/70 00:00      
                        re the XA            01/01/70 00:00      
                     How many 51' compilers make use of the 51's dual DPTR            01/01/70 00:00      
               You must live on a very interesting corner!            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Ha,ha, AVR are ubiquitus            01/01/70 00:00      
                     HUH??            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics            01/01/70 00:00      
                           I think            01/01/70 00:00      
                        'F120            01/01/70 00:00      
                           "bunchload"            01/01/70 00:00      
                              re: bunchload            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Youse guys in Old Blightly            01/01/70 00:00      
         Prototyping SMD's            01/01/70 00:00      
            Hand-made PCBs with hand-soldered SMDs            01/01/70 00:00      
            SMD's            01/01/70 00:00      
               Well, that's nice, but not necessary.            01/01/70 00:00      
            a very general - and accurate - comment ...            01/01/70 00:00      
               apprehension            01/01/70 00:00      
   nearby            01/01/70 00:00      
      'jumping' from the '51            01/01/70 00:00      
         AVR update            01/01/70 00:00      
            the chip does not crash            01/01/70 00:00      
               Lockup etc            01/01/70 00:00      
                  increase the clock until lockup            01/01/70 00:00      
                     undefined behaviour            01/01/70 00:00      
                     NO, they do not recommend it            01/01/70 00:00      
                        simultaneous posts            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Overclocking            01/01/70 00:00      
                     This is simply an error in judgment            01/01/70 00:00      
                        all bets are off            01/01/70 00:00      
                     overclocking            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Yeah, okay            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Neeed for speeed            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Because of this...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Missing the point            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    missing the point?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Modern derivatives            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 hogwash            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 I'm not sure you're on track here ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Hi Richard            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       the problem with AVR's is that they're ATMEL only            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          That's one general and one personal problem            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Yes, that's what it is ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Second source not so important anymore            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   It's not as convenient now as it once was            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Free tools only have investment in knowledge            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         again. Per            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Not at all            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         it's not just the tools            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            "Best code"            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               There are too many definitions of "best"            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               Don't go for best            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   yes and no            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Single-source chips vs single-source architecture            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 cross purposes            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    DSP PROCS            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       gp ahead, stay behind the curve            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Got to disagree there,...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             I do not consider 'luck' a design parameter            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Flying leads            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       re: DSP PROCS            01/01/70 00:00      
                           100MHz 32-bit ARM            01/01/70 00:00      
                              The Trap...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 talking out of both sides of the mouth            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 "on the DSP level"            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Often hand-optimized assembler available            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Misunderstood me            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Cross talk            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       What kind            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       nobody has suggested            01/01/70 00:00      
                           no, you are not            01/01/70 00:00      
                           there are '51s with MACs            01/01/70 00:00      
                              and...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 yes and            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 He wants Plastic Dips            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    very few and            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    the 33 mips DS89C450 is in DIP if you want            01/01/70 00:00      
            no such thing as "Best"            01/01/70 00:00      
               '51 weaknesses outweigh the AVR            01/01/70 00:00      
                  similiar            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Quite so            01/01/70 00:00      
                     3, 4, 5            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Horses for courses            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Have you considered using a DSP?            01/01/70 00:00      
   I'll be off too, but not to AVR            01/01/70 00:00      
      A Guess            01/01/70 00:00      
         Low volume            01/01/70 00:00      

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