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???
02/11/07 06:53
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#132507 - Yep
Responding to: ???'s previous message
Jeff Post said:
YMMV. By "immerse" I mean precisely that. No speaking your native language at all. Either communicate in the language you're trying to learn, or use gestures and body language. Sink or swim. I'll take a wild guess that you still spoke quite a bit of English after you moved to Mexico.


Only online (written) and a very occasional call back to the states to my parents or friends. All my communication on a daily basis was 100% Spanish. I definitely qualified as immersed. Enough that when I'd visit the United States once or twice a year, it'd literally take a couple of days to get used to speaking English again--I'd have a conversation and start speaking Spanish until someone let me know I wasn't speaking English. And even today, after living back in the U.S. for a year, I have to re-read what I write because sometimes I write something in English that is syntaxically Spanish and has to be fixed.

Jeff Post said:
My working definition of "fairly fluent" is that you can communicate well enough to make yourself easily understood and that you easily understand others. Doesn't mean you sound like any other person in particular. A good old boy from the South and a New Englander can understand each other, but they'll still think the other "sounds funny".


The difference between the errors made by a 10-year old Mexican and me after 10 years in Mexico go beyond just "sounding funny." Like I said, it's the little grammar errors that a child leaves behind but an adult that learned the language may well fumble pretty much forever.

Craig Steiner said:
And the difference between my Spanish after 10 years in Mexico and a 10-year old Mexican's Spanish...


JeffPost said:
Of course it'll be different. Your English and mine are different.


You're misunderstanding the differences that I'm talking about. Our English might be different, but one isn't right and the other wrong. They are different styles. That's most definitely not what I'm talking about.

Jeff Post said:
Ten-year olds make grammar mistakes in any language. For that matter some adults who have spoken a language all their lives still don't do it well. Some people talk good, others speak well ;-)


Fair enough. Maybe 10 years isn't enough years to make the case, and measuring a child's time-to-learn from day zero probably isn't reasonable either. But I know for a fact that a 20-year old Mexican speaks better Spanish than someone that learned it as an adult and has been speaking it for 20 years. It's entirely possible the adult knows more vocabulary, but that doesn't mean he speaks Spanish better than the Mexican.

Jeff Post said:
FWIW, Mexicans don't speak Spanish anymore than you and I speak English. I've been to Spain, the sound is completely different. You and I don't sound like Englishmen, at least I don't.


That's kind of a pointless point. Earlier in your message you said that how each person "sounded" wasn't important. Now you seem to be making the case that I (and Mexicans) don't speak Spanish because we speak it differently than in Spain. Whatever.

Jeff Post said:
But getting back on track, the disagreement was as to whether or not our mental acuity degrades with age. Rob claimed that it was a "scientific fact" that it does. Neither of you has provided scientific evidence to back up that claim (NB: I haven't yet finished looking at all the links Rob provided). My own experience and readings indicate that it just ain't so. Certainly it's true for many people, but it manifestly is not for many others. Mental deterioration is caused by many things, but age alone is not one of them. Case in point: George Burns. I'm sure you can think of others.


You're thinking of exceptions rather than rules. In the case of exceptions such as George Burns, I'll grant that other parts of his body deteriorated faster than his mind, but I seriously doubt Burns was as mentally agile the day he died than he was at 30. I don't have evidence to support that, but I believe it is logical to believe it.

Jeff Post said:
Now to make my own point: Idiots use the myth of feeble-minded older folk to justify all kinds of despicable discrimination. I view that as being no different than race or gender discrimination. And it is equally unjustified. Before you put yourself in that camp, remember that you'll one day be faced with it, if you aren't already.


That's a fact of life. Hopefully I will be faced with it. That said, I don't think older people are "feeble-minded." Many are very sharp. But I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of them were even sharper when they were younger. Obviously not as knowledgeable, but more agile.

Jeff Post said:
Oh, BTW, Linux has been ready for the desktop for many years. It's the only thing I've used on my machines for at least six years now.


Like I said, I used it for 2 or 3 years until March of last year and it was the only thing I used on my desktop. Linux is the only thing I'd use on a server, but it's not ready for my desktop--and I feel that the 2-3 years I gave it was a reasonable effort. When I went back to Windows, I was just overwhelmed by how things just work. That doesn't mean I like Windows and, believe me, I'd love to use Linux instead. But after 2-3 years, it was still a drain on my productivity.

When that changes, I expect to go back to Linux; unless I've moved to a Mac. I can't imagine myself doing that, but I know some people that couldn't imagine themselves doing that and now they're using the Mac and lovin' it.

Regards,
Craig Steiner


List of 149 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
oh and completely off topic but...            01/01/70 00:00      
   Everyone I know who\'s tried it, hates it            01/01/70 00:00      
      Careful now            01/01/70 00:00      
         half the time            01/01/70 00:00      
            They\'ll \"get the message\" ...            01/01/70 00:00      
               Linux, Mac's etc...            01/01/70 00:00      
                  You should still be able to get XP            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Retail...            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Yes            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Opps            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Good work            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Uhhh...            01/01/70 00:00      
                              We don't allow Apples, iPods, or cellphones            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Sounds...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    My guys have a work ethic.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Dignity            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Dignity means different things to different people            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Jeff ...You're right but You forgot something ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             38            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Ok, 38 going on 22            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Ecomomist            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      This is evidence?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Works            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Old vs Young            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               I all honesty re age            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Still no evidence            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               The data            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Better...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               Ok            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  common knowledge            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     are you sure it's Spanish....            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        the written language is Spanish            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     I don't agree            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        The discrimination ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           Age discrimination - why            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              True            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              experienced that one            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Yep            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        I am sticking with my old system            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        Mac            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  it could go either way            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  it is easy to learn a language            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      we get more polite :)            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          I disagree, Rob            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             arbeit macht frei            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                You\'re right, in a sense...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Bingo            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Hmm            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Offices vs cubes            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    When coding            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       no ... not quite ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          180            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             It keeps the riff-raff out            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                That metric...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       I worked once at a very "enlightened" company and            01/01/70 00:00      
         Yes, but I'm an old man ...            01/01/70 00:00      
   How to upgrade            01/01/70 00:00      
   Wait a little :)            01/01/70 00:00      
   is it?            01/01/70 00:00      
   Jumping the shark            01/01/70 00:00      
      Vista            01/01/70 00:00      
         Ref - Happy Days            01/01/70 00:00      
            Ahh            01/01/70 00:00      
         should it be \"Hasta la Vista\"?            01/01/70 00:00      
   a word to the Vista            01/01/70 00:00      
      Subtle humor?            01/01/70 00:00      
         No joke. It's an automatic forward            01/01/70 00:00      
            Unintended joke perhaps            01/01/70 00:00      
               it'll never stop 'till YOU stop buying Micro$oft            01/01/70 00:00      
                  wrong point            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Is it?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Been theree            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Device programmers            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Device programmers            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Exactly            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Huh?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    at least the LINUX stuff is tested ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Irony Strikes Again            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          I\'m going blind, I guess ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       the fruit basket again            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Xilinx software testing            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Xilinx            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                lucky you            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   IC makers tools            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      They hire software weenies to test it, if at all            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Xilinx support            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             I agree completely, Andy            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    In the last year?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Decent WIndows Accounting            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Agreed            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    oh no, not again            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       It doesn't stop the complainers            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Maybe...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          bug reports            01/01/70 00:00      
                              whoi on earth has time for that?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 SDCC            01/01/70 00:00      
   such as            01/01/70 00:00      
      such as this            01/01/70 00:00      
         get a life            01/01/70 00:00      
            No need to reply            01/01/70 00:00      
               religious fanatism seems to permeate the            01/01/70 00:00      
                  It\'s FANATICISM, Erik            01/01/70 00:00      
      or as            01/01/70 00:00      
         how would that fix a compiler bug?            01/01/70 00:00      
            If someone complains ...            01/01/70 00:00      
               I wish them the very best            01/01/70 00:00      
            Define violence            01/01/70 00:00      
               OK, I'll define            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Ok...            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Hit the nail on the head            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Open-source products are generated for cause            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Please...            01/01/70 00:00      
                           On deaf ears            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Commercial software            01/01/70 00:00      
                              If I make a product that behaves exatly like my co            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Minix            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 I'd like to know, as I do not remember the details            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    The SCO case            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Spades aren't diamonds, and there's nothing free            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Monopoly ideas behind patents and copyrights.            01/01/70 00:00      
                              IP            01/01/70 00:00      
                              The deal is...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Steve, Rob & Lynn            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Free            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       I dont' understant...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Copyrights            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    But what if you die soon after getting a copyright            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       van den            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          "from the"            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             In NL, anything above the sea level is Berg... :-)            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                LOL!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Above sea level ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      about 60% or so ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         they beat us            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Prove it !            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Mountain            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Mountains :)            01/01/70 00:00      
   is that where this comes from            01/01/70 00:00      
   32-bit Vista            01/01/70 00:00      
      Have you tried ...            01/01/70 00:00      
         Deja Vu            01/01/70 00:00      
            use the boat anchor approach            01/01/70 00:00      
   XP available if you know where to go            01/01/70 00:00      
      thats where ebay and similar come in handy            01/01/70 00:00      
      Vista doesnt support many DOS programs            01/01/70 00:00      
         don't you get it?            01/01/70 00:00      
         Virtualize, or emulate.            01/01/70 00:00      
            dosemu for linux            01/01/70 00:00      
         Virtual PC            01/01/70 00:00      

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