??? 02/11/07 06:53 Read: times |
#132507 - Yep Responding to: ???'s previous message |
Jeff Post said:
YMMV. By "immerse" I mean precisely that. No speaking your native language at all. Either communicate in the language you're trying to learn, or use gestures and body language. Sink or swim. I'll take a wild guess that you still spoke quite a bit of English after you moved to Mexico. Only online (written) and a very occasional call back to the states to my parents or friends. All my communication on a daily basis was 100% Spanish. I definitely qualified as immersed. Enough that when I'd visit the United States once or twice a year, it'd literally take a couple of days to get used to speaking English again--I'd have a conversation and start speaking Spanish until someone let me know I wasn't speaking English. And even today, after living back in the U.S. for a year, I have to re-read what I write because sometimes I write something in English that is syntaxically Spanish and has to be fixed. Jeff Post said:
My working definition of "fairly fluent" is that you can communicate well enough to make yourself easily understood and that you easily understand others. Doesn't mean you sound like any other person in particular. A good old boy from the South and a New Englander can understand each other, but they'll still think the other "sounds funny". The difference between the errors made by a 10-year old Mexican and me after 10 years in Mexico go beyond just "sounding funny." Like I said, it's the little grammar errors that a child leaves behind but an adult that learned the language may well fumble pretty much forever. Craig Steiner said:
And the difference between my Spanish after 10 years in Mexico and a 10-year old Mexican's Spanish... JeffPost said:
Of course it'll be different. Your English and mine are different. You're misunderstanding the differences that I'm talking about. Our English might be different, but one isn't right and the other wrong. They are different styles. That's most definitely not what I'm talking about. Jeff Post said:
Ten-year olds make grammar mistakes in any language. For that matter some adults who have spoken a language all their lives still don't do it well. Some people talk good, others speak well ;-) Fair enough. Maybe 10 years isn't enough years to make the case, and measuring a child's time-to-learn from day zero probably isn't reasonable either. But I know for a fact that a 20-year old Mexican speaks better Spanish than someone that learned it as an adult and has been speaking it for 20 years. It's entirely possible the adult knows more vocabulary, but that doesn't mean he speaks Spanish better than the Mexican. Jeff Post said:
FWIW, Mexicans don't speak Spanish anymore than you and I speak English. I've been to Spain, the sound is completely different. You and I don't sound like Englishmen, at least I don't. That's kind of a pointless point. Earlier in your message you said that how each person "sounded" wasn't important. Now you seem to be making the case that I (and Mexicans) don't speak Spanish because we speak it differently than in Spain. Whatever. Jeff Post said:
But getting back on track, the disagreement was as to whether or not our mental acuity degrades with age. Rob claimed that it was a "scientific fact" that it does. Neither of you has provided scientific evidence to back up that claim (NB: I haven't yet finished looking at all the links Rob provided). My own experience and readings indicate that it just ain't so. Certainly it's true for many people, but it manifestly is not for many others. Mental deterioration is caused by many things, but age alone is not one of them. Case in point: George Burns. I'm sure you can think of others. You're thinking of exceptions rather than rules. In the case of exceptions such as George Burns, I'll grant that other parts of his body deteriorated faster than his mind, but I seriously doubt Burns was as mentally agile the day he died than he was at 30. I don't have evidence to support that, but I believe it is logical to believe it. Jeff Post said:
Now to make my own point: Idiots use the myth of feeble-minded older folk to justify all kinds of despicable discrimination. I view that as being no different than race or gender discrimination. And it is equally unjustified. Before you put yourself in that camp, remember that you'll one day be faced with it, if you aren't already. That's a fact of life. Hopefully I will be faced with it. That said, I don't think older people are "feeble-minded." Many are very sharp. But I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of them were even sharper when they were younger. Obviously not as knowledgeable, but more agile. Jeff Post said:
Oh, BTW, Linux has been ready for the desktop for many years. It's the only thing I've used on my machines for at least six years now. Like I said, I used it for 2 or 3 years until March of last year and it was the only thing I used on my desktop. Linux is the only thing I'd use on a server, but it's not ready for my desktop--and I feel that the 2-3 years I gave it was a reasonable effort. When I went back to Windows, I was just overwhelmed by how things just work. That doesn't mean I like Windows and, believe me, I'd love to use Linux instead. But after 2-3 years, it was still a drain on my productivity. When that changes, I expect to go back to Linux; unless I've moved to a Mac. I can't imagine myself doing that, but I know some people that couldn't imagine themselves doing that and now they're using the Mac and lovin' it. Regards, Craig Steiner |