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???
11/12/06 23:29
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#127835 - There's an area where that's not necessarily true
Responding to: ???'s previous message
In communication circuitry where everybody is working from their own crystal oscillator, particularly if they're all thinking they're very close to the "true" value, within, say, 50 ppm. When that is the case, and you're switching between inputs, each of which is generated from its own version of, say, 20 MHz give or take those 50 ppm, if the edges come very close to one another, the dual-rank registers may not save you within the length of a packet of data. Dual rank registers seem to save you when two signals are very close to one another, causing setup/hold time violations rarely, but if they're cause on every clock/data relationship for a long period, you're in trouble.

There, it becomes important to be able to simulate the post-fit or post-route performance, just to demonstrate that your circuitry can cope with rapidly and frequently repeated violations.

FPGA's have clock synchronization facilitators, either DLL's or PLL's, that help with deskewing. However, they don't help much with synchronizing the internal clock with an external one, particularly if that external one changes frequently. The result is that you have to devise synchronization tools that are particularly subject to metastability. Circuitry can recover from metastability. The simulators don't seem to have learned that yet.

Comparing simulated results with physical results, by providing logic analyzer or even oscilloscope displays is useful for assuring customers that what was predicted by the simulator is what is most likely to happen. It's all a mattter of statistics, of course, but it does happen that things pop up in the "real" world that don't in the simulator.

It's not part of the design review, at least not the critical review prior to acceptance and delivery, but the correlation between simulation and performance of every device to be delivered is demonstrated in advance of final review. It's done by capturing the display and showing it in correspondence with the simulation. This provides, at least, the statement that it does appear to work as it's designed to work. It's better than just behavioral or functional simulation.

Unfortunately, simulators have a problem with real-world events such as occur when the leading edge of signal A has, for some time preceded the leading edge of signal B, but the two come closer and closer to coincidence, and, ultimately, their roles are reversed. Metastability often occurs in just those circumstances. Simulators have trouble with that (a) because it requires very gradual incrementation of the decreasing phase differences, which implies REALLY long runs, and (b) simulators have trouble predicting the behavior of signals that undergo metastabile outputs/inputs. Even SPICE has trouble with 'em.

RE






List of 81 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
Getting Started With FPGAs            01/01/70 00:00      
   A Book            01/01/70 00:00      
   Proceed with caution!            01/01/70 00:00      
   This is quite a nice deveolpment board            01/01/70 00:00      
   I like this board            01/01/70 00:00      
      I\'ve got one of these and can\'t recommend it            01/01/70 00:00      
         What are you talking about            01/01/70 00:00      
            Let me explain ...            01/01/70 00:00      
   generaly speaking            01/01/70 00:00      
      Damn, Jez, you need a spell-checker!            01/01/70 00:00      
         HDL-based design needs TEST BENCHES            01/01/70 00:00      
            I use 'em all the time, but ...            01/01/70 00:00      
               If your design is so simple            01/01/70 00:00      
                  What\'s important is the entry effort            01/01/70 00:00      
                     I dunno where you get these ideas from Richard            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Can you say ModelSim?            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Wrong            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Well, the schematic needs a little work            01/01/70 00:00      
                           more work?            01/01/70 00:00      
                              a few points ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                           ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                     HDL vs Schematics, take 1E6            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Thta may be great comfort to you ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Schematics? You're kidding!            01/01/70 00:00      
                              No, nor is my customer.            01/01/70 00:00      
                              both are a 'representation of Boole'            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Yep, you're right...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    To Clarify            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       schematic as equivalence check            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Manual verification impossible because ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             schematic verification            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Some more clarification            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          hanging problem            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             so will your post be            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    it's not fear of the unknown, but fear of its cost            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Static Timing Analysis and those "young engineers"            01/01/70 00:00      
                              It's a sign of the times, I suppose            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 And times change            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 senior?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    That's because you've been avoiding the subject            01/01/70 00:00      
            I agree entirely. test benches are a pain but            01/01/70 00:00      
   Update from the OP            01/01/70 00:00      
      It's true ... we see things differently            01/01/70 00:00      
      the first buuk for any such venture            01/01/70 00:00      
      FPGA boards and that Cypress book            01/01/70 00:00      
         This may answer your question(s)            01/01/70 00:00      
   some of the references in the fpga faq            01/01/70 00:00      
      Good attitude            01/01/70 00:00      
   Also remeber to look at webistes like www.xilinx.c            01/01/70 00:00      
   My recommendation and opinions            01/01/70 00:00      
      I would stay away from Virtex-II            01/01/70 00:00      
         If you're going to fiddle with the 805x core ...            01/01/70 00:00      
            Something about life-cycles            01/01/70 00:00      
               No doubt about it.            01/01/70 00:00      
                  useful work            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Well, I beg to differ.            01/01/70 00:00      
                        salient point            01/01/70 00:00      
                           There's an area where that's not necessarily true            01/01/70 00:00      
                           FPGA Editor            01/01/70 00:00      
            Not necessarily            01/01/70 00:00      
               It's still too costly            01/01/70 00:00      
   Thanks to all            01/01/70 00:00      
   Update #2 from the OP            01/01/70 00:00      
   A testbench is...            01/01/70 00:00      
      I C            01/01/70 00:00      
         test bench            01/01/70 00:00      
            Makes sense            01/01/70 00:00      
   Yeah but...            01/01/70 00:00      
   Tristate buffer with propagation delays            01/01/70 00:00      
   Schematics vs. HDL            01/01/70 00:00      
      In a nutshell            01/01/70 00:00      
         it\'s been a while            01/01/70 00:00      
      Yes, but ... and there's always a but ...            01/01/70 00:00      
   Yep you can its called gate level design            01/01/70 00:00      
   Its really nothing to do with showing off            01/01/70 00:00      
      did you paraphrase this?            01/01/70 00:00      
      Jez, It\'s not \"sea of gates\" design, you know ...            01/01/70 00:00      
         Richards, it is there philosophy            01/01/70 00:00      
         Viewlogic            01/01/70 00:00      
   it is true            01/01/70 00:00      
   Here you go Richard graphical design exploration            01/01/70 00:00      

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