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06/20/08 23:36
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#156079 - Its all about the doc
Responding to: ???'s previous message
Andy Peters said:
Richard Erlacher said:
Andy Peters said:
But you still haven't answered my question. What is the decimal equivalent to the binary vector "10010110"? The answer makes it obvious why VHDL handles numbers as it does.

I don't know why that's an issue but if it's what it appears to be, namely a bit vector, then the first element is 1 which makes it a HEX 69, which is decimal 96+9 or 105.


You fell into my carefully-plotted trap!

Actually, the value is 0x96.


That's odd! The one time I remember using a bit-vector, and quite a long one, the leftmost bit was the first bit I encountered meaning that it was the lsb ... I'll have to revisit that. The way I did it seems to have worked fine ...

If you want unsigned decimal, then your decimal number is 150.

But if you want a signed decimal, then that same bit vector represents -106.
oddly enough, I've never had to work signed numbers in VHDL.


It should be obvious why this is important!


I don't doubt that it's important


What puzzles me is why so many textbooks on VHDL simply fail to discuss the business of the various data types and their purpose, and when they're of benefit, not to mention the business of translating from one to the other.


I think that Ashenden, esp. the 2nd edition, does a good job of this. See chapter 8.


Well, it appears that mine is 1st edition, and Ch 8 is entitled Packages and Use Clauses.

The book that came with the Cypress tools is so old, and the version of the language that those tools supported is obsolete, so you're best off pulping the book.

Running the counter in type natural is fine until you have to generate STD_LOGIC_VECTOR output from it because it's an address counter in a DMA Channel. Then, too, you'd want to decode various strobes from the low-order bits ... How would that work without type conversion?


You can do a handful of things.

a) Code your DMA channel logic to use naturals for its address counter.

b) don't use natural, use numeric_std's unsigned type. Say you have a 16-bit address space. Declare your counter as an unsigned(15 downto 0). Arithmetic operations work as you expect. But dig this: if, for example, you wish to use the 4 LSbs as a mux select, just use 'em:
architecture foo of bar is
    signal count : unsigned(15 downto 0);
    signal mux : std_logic;
    signal this, that, theother : std_logic; -- mux inputs
begin -- architecture 
    CountAndMux : process(clk) is
    begin
        if rising_edge(clk) then
            if (rst = '1') then
                count <= (others => '0');
                mux <= '0';
            else
                count <= (count + 1) mod 65536;
                FooMux : case count(1 downto 0) is
                    when "00" =>
                        mux <= '0';
                    when "01" =>
                        mux <= this;
                    when "10" =>
                        mux <= that;
                    when "11" =>
                        mux <= theother;
                end case Foomux;
            end if; -- reset
        end if; -- clock
    end process CountAndMux;
end architecture foo;

So, you're asking, "Why does that mux select work?" Simple ... the unsigned (and its brother, signed) in numeric_std are bit vectors. In fact, they are "closely related" to std_logic_vector, which is why the conversion between the two is a type cast and not a function call.

Since count is a bit vector, you can pick out any of the bits and use them individually however you wish, just like it was a type bit_vector or a type std_logic_vector.

c) Use natural, and use range decoders. Synthesis tools are pretty smart. For example, the following synthesizes to the simple comparator you expect:
architecture bada of bing is
    subtype nat16_t : natural range 0 to 65535;
    constant A_BASE : nat16_t := X"F000";
    constant A_TOP  : nat16_t := X"F0FF";
    signal myaddr   : nat16_t;
    signal select   : std_logic;
begin
    select <= '1' when (myaddr >= A_BASE) and 
                       (myaddr <  A_TOP) else
              '0';
end architecture bada;

Can you recommend of a text that actually goes into meaningful and exhaustive detail about when you'd want to use one type over another?

Ashenden. But I think it's really up to the designer what makes the most sense. Basically, if the number is used only in an entity, then use natural or integer. If the value needs to go out of the entity, then do a conversion at the boundary. If you need to use bit parts of the value, then maybe unsigned or signed is what you want.

Finally, the SynthWorks people have a very good introduction (pdf) to the various numeric types.

Really, this isn't at all complicated.

-a

This is definitely going to require more study, but I'd prefer to get a look at a source that really provides a thorough set of reasoning for why each numeric type exists and what it does that the others don't. Getting from one to the other without excessive verbosity is desirable too.

RE


List of 51 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
xilinx ISE 10.1 is broken            01/01/70 00:00      
   a lot of their stuff has been broken lately ...            01/01/70 00:00      
   broken!            01/01/70 00:00      
      JSM            01/01/70 00:00      
   ah ha well.....            01/01/70 00:00      
      v7 was a stab at a rewrite, as was v8            01/01/70 00:00      
         Schematic?            01/01/70 00:00      
            Once upon a time ...            01/01/70 00:00      
               jesus            01/01/70 00:00      
                  it's not the technology ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                     kind of            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Is the synthesis really wrong, or just the RTL?            01/01/70 00:00      
                           nope            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Thanks            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Anyway            01/01/70 00:00      
                        schematic versus block diagram            01/01/70 00:00      
                        I have to take exception            01/01/70 00:00      
                           gates            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Not quite            01/01/70 00:00      
               wow talk about out of date....            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Not so fast, there, Pilgrim ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                     various ways to do that            01/01/70 00:00      
                        I'm not sure that applies ... Jez            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Can I suggest            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Thanks for the "spiritual guidance" ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 decimal            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 decimal            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    It's about readability            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       readability            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          also re: readability            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       re: readability            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       type conversion is a pain            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Yes it's a pain, and it's not well explained.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             bzzzzzzzzzzzt!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Its all about the doc            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   why the different types?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      This is good stuff!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         obscurity            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Nearly every package has a manual            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               buffer mode ports            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  buried macrocells too            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     experts            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        Yes, it's about the "experts."            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   endianity            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      endianity drives me to insanity ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         HDL wins            01/01/70 00:00      
                     no....            01/01/70 00:00      
                  An interesting dichotomy...            01/01/70 00:00      
                     I don\'t follow ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Oy            01/01/70 00:00      
      not synthesizing correctly            01/01/70 00:00      

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