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???
06/23/10 13:46
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#176863 - Same same all the time. no "one size fits".
Responding to: ???'s previous message
I work with 8051, PPC, AVR, PIC, ARM, ...

The AVR are 8-bitters, so they are "just" different from 8051. There is no direct gain from replacing a 8051 with an AVR. The smallest 8-pin chips might possibly be interesting alternatives to an 8051.

The PPC chips I use are much larger chips running full Linux systems with many MB of flash and RAM and support for multiple ethernet, USB, CF, ... They are obviously not traditional microcontrollers that can be seen as alternatives for a high-end 8051. Especially not after having looked at the price.

There are a number of PIC variants. Some of them are very strong competitors for 8051 chips in the low-energy niche - for example the chips in the Nanowatt series. Most most of the chips are just "different".

If I do talk about ARM, it's because the ARM chips are the family that best complements 8051 processors. They are available in low and high-pin editions. They are available with low or high CPU performance. They are available with similar flash/RAM sizes as many 8051 while continuing towards MB sizes. They are available with low or high power consumption. The important thing is that 8051 and ARM processors have a very large overlap. In that overlap, it isn't obvious which alternative is best. But you do well to take a look at the options before making a decision.

What you really have to realize is something I have said before. I don't care the slightest if you decide to build a processor from discrete transistors. I don't gain anything from getting peoples to use a specific architecture or chips supplied by a specific manufacturer or distributor. But I regularly do see people having very bumpy rides because they have one tool, and are doing their damndest to make the world fit that single tool. I like to have a well-filled tool chest, and select a suitable tool depending on problem.

I have many times seen products run out of batteries almost instantly because a too powerful procesor (or maybe too old) was used. Or the software was lousy at using any available hw accelerations. And I have many times seen products that stutters because a too slow processor was used - or the code did a lousy job of using any available interrupt handlers, FIFOs, DMA, ... Some of the problems can be solved by having better educated developers producing higher-quality code. Some of the problems can be solved by having the developers do a better job of selecting the correct chip. It's just as important to not just select an 8051 but to select a suitable variant. Same with ARM chips. There are no "one size fits".

What I'm trying to sell to people is the idea that if the developer does not start the project by making sure that he has selected good/proper hardware, it can only go downhill from there.

I have to stick with generalities because there are many architectures that are competing, and that have processor models that are absolutely perfect for specific tasks. And within each architecture there are many different models - discussing a specific model is only meaningful if having a specific task/goal.

If I see someone trying to use a Pentium-class ARM chip to implement a lamp timer, I ask them why they didn't consider a 8051/PIC/AVR/... instead.

I have many times met fools (and sometimes been the fool myself). But if I meet a fool from dishwasher company X, I can't conclude that all sales people selling dish washers are fools or are lying about their products or have products that isn't actually doing what the sales broschures are claiming. I can ignore the fool, but must still be prepared to evaluate the dish washers that are available to figure out which one has a suitable size, water consumption, electricity consumption, ease of use, price, warranty, ... that may suit me.

It's irrelevant if Atmel have managed to pick a fool or two five or ten years ago. That has no relevance to what Microchip or NXP or ST or Freescale has on offer. Or the price. Or the documentation quality.

When looking at ARM chips, you'll find thousands of models too small to run Linux. But somehow, people seem to think ARM are more or less implying Linux.

List of 104 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
So What Is An 8051/2 Good For?            01/01/70 00:00      
   thoughts            01/01/70 00:00      
      The Future of the 805x            01/01/70 00:00      
         PARC            01/01/70 00:00      
            Bigger Hammers            01/01/70 00:00      
               re: Bigger Hammers            01/01/70 00:00      
               The opposite problem seems more common here!            01/01/70 00:00      
         Would Toyota have had the problem if ...            01/01/70 00:00      
            Toyota: Case in point            01/01/70 00:00      
            RE: Toyota            01/01/70 00:00      
               It was a mechanical fix ...            01/01/70 00:00      
            Parallel Processing            01/01/70 00:00      
               Sometimes the practical reality is of little consequence            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Totally Agree, but I was looking for a magic bullet            01/01/70 00:00      
                  RE: "outperform"            01/01/70 00:00      
                     There are some operations ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                        rephrased            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Now, you are extrapolating            01/01/70 00:00      
                           good points, but            01/01/70 00:00      
                              How many 8051 chips uses 0.13u?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 not yet            01/01/70 00:00      
                           not exactly ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Do not get focused on one operation...            01/01/70 00:00      
                              any 8-bit instruction can exist in a 32-bit processor            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Yes, but does it?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    So have you looked at any other processors?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       not a point of disagreement, but you missed it anyway            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          A good point            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             beg to differ            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Disagree entirely!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Yes, auto-increment/decrement is standard and not "feature"            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             What I wanted to point out ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Same same all the time. no "one size fits".            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   and the most important point is (drumroll) ....            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Comparing Apples to Oranges            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Prices are comparable            01/01/70 00:00      
               Parallel processing            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Sweeping generalisation!            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Not a magic silver bullit            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Fond memories            01/01/70 00:00      
                        A magic bullet            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Most concepts already exists in the wild            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Another generalisation            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Speed vs latency            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Why 8051?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Isn't it obvious?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    ARM simpler than 8051            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Generalisation            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          ARM 'MCUs' have their limitations too!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             You normally engineer with a backup plan            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    No, it's not!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Im just trying to provide an argument            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          x bits are just one parameter among many            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Avoiding the issue            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Avoiding what issue?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          They say it because it's true!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          RE: ARM is not the only 32-bitter            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Please don'g generalize            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Heterogenous multiprocessing widespread            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Re: Multicore 8051            01/01/70 00:00      
                     ALU chaining            01/01/70 00:00      
   Well... maybe            01/01/70 00:00      
      A Linear Accelerator?            01/01/70 00:00      
         Its one of these            01/01/70 00:00      
      please, repeat            01/01/70 00:00      
         All I was saying was            01/01/70 00:00      
   So what the '51 are good for...            01/01/70 00:00      
      Not terribly helpful            01/01/70 00:00      
         Always up to the developers            01/01/70 00:00      
            RE: The manufacturers tells us...            01/01/70 00:00      
               Sales - "may be used for" presented as "recommended"            01/01/70 00:00      
               pretty hot, low-power and small            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Automotive...            01/01/70 00:00      
         but answers your original question (at least the one...            01/01/70 00:00      
         MCS51 still rocking !!!            01/01/70 00:00      
            Scale            01/01/70 00:00      
            Missing the point            01/01/70 00:00      
               Impossible to generalize into fields            01/01/70 00:00      
                  An appropriate generalisation...            01/01/70 00:00      
               You are right..Andy Neil            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Cheers!            01/01/70 00:00      
                     No..only AT89C52 can be used            01/01/70 00:00      
                        why do you insist on Atmel?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        what a strange post            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Tools?            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Multiple manufactuers with (almost) identical chips            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Getting better            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Unified interrupt controller is really great            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Yes, even with free tools for PIC/AVR            01/01/70 00:00      
                              I mean no offense, but ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Similar difficulties coming to 8051/2?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Same same            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Is it your purchase price or why so sure AVR or PIC are off?            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Answer to Per and Erik...            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Living in the past            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Thanks John D. Maniraj            01/01/70 00:00      
                     locking            01/01/70 00:00      
                        RE: Locking            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Agreed, but            01/01/70 00:00      
                           fairly easy            01/01/70 00:00      
      Don't forget consumer devices            01/01/70 00:00      
         A perfect application            01/01/70 00:00      
   8051 vs ARM            01/01/70 00:00      
   just thought of one case            01/01/70 00:00      

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