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???
06/23/10 04:50
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#176843 - not a point of disagreement, but you missed it anyway
Responding to: ???'s previous message
Per Westermark said:
richard said:
The real question is not whether or not a thing is possible, but, whether it has been done.

If you want to ask such a question, you better be more specific about exactly what has been done.

Your previous post was about isolating 8 bits at a time, and I did mention 32-bit chips that did 8-bit reads without need for any separate isolation.

Having two indices is good for a 8051. Most 32-bit processors may have 8 or maybe even 32. Sometimes with support for auto-increment or auto-decrement.

You can get an ARM chip for $1, even if most people probably ends up with $3-$10 chips depending on needs.

While it's interesting to note, the previous two comments muddy the water rather than clearing it. Are you saying that a $1 ARM supports auto-inc/dec?

Some of the ARM can handle 8-bit accesses from memory without extra costs. Some can't. The ARM core produces the required info - it's a question of the memory controller glued to the ARM core.

If the ARM core does it in two clocks or five clocks is fun, but at the same time some ARM may do 40MHz and some may do 400MHz. So the length of a clock can vary quite a lot.

A LPC17xx does:
unsigned char *p1,*p2;

*p1++ = *p2++ // 4 clock cycles = 1MB/s at 4MHz or 25MB/s at 100MHz. Some parts do 30MB/s at 120MHz.

The LPC17xx are a bit high-end, resulting in most models costing around $4-$5 in volume.
But you can find much cheaper Cortex-M3 chips too.

If running 100MHz, you get a cycle time of 10ns or 40ns/transfer.
If running 120MHz, you get 33ns/transfer.

Having a PLL means that the same chip can dynamically switch speed, depending on needs.

The cheapest NXP Cortex-M3 seems to be around $1.5 to $2 and manages up to 72MHz.

Richard said:
What do you have in mind as far as your notion that all instructions/operations can be implemented? Is there a core that you'd choose for DIY MCU applications?

No magic hidden in the sentence. Every instruction you can implement in an 8-bit processor can be implemented in a 16-bit or 32-bit processor. So it all comes back to my previous claim. You can't say that 8-bitters are faster for microcontroller work. You can only say that a specific 8-bit processor can win over a specific 32-bit processor when doing a specific task. There is nothing magic in an 8-bit processor that can't exist in a 16-bit or even 84-bit processor.

I don't disagree with anything you've said, Per, but just because it's possible to implement an instruction doesn't mean that it's been done for me. If I want a product, rather than a concept, knowing it's possible doesn't help me.

If you're after a product, knowing its implementation cost is pretty important. In the past, I've always found the ARM's considerably more costly to put on a board. That doesn't mean it's unreasonable to consider ARM, or any other 16/32-bit MCU, but one does have to consider its implementation cost. BTW, are any of those $1 ARM's priced that low in handfuls?

RE



List of 104 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
So What Is An 8051/2 Good For?            01/01/70 00:00      
   thoughts            01/01/70 00:00      
      The Future of the 805x            01/01/70 00:00      
         PARC            01/01/70 00:00      
            Bigger Hammers            01/01/70 00:00      
               re: Bigger Hammers            01/01/70 00:00      
               The opposite problem seems more common here!            01/01/70 00:00      
         Would Toyota have had the problem if ...            01/01/70 00:00      
            Toyota: Case in point            01/01/70 00:00      
            RE: Toyota            01/01/70 00:00      
               It was a mechanical fix ...            01/01/70 00:00      
            Parallel Processing            01/01/70 00:00      
               Sometimes the practical reality is of little consequence            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Totally Agree, but I was looking for a magic bullet            01/01/70 00:00      
                  RE: "outperform"            01/01/70 00:00      
                     There are some operations ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                        rephrased            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Now, you are extrapolating            01/01/70 00:00      
                           good points, but            01/01/70 00:00      
                              How many 8051 chips uses 0.13u?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 not yet            01/01/70 00:00      
                           not exactly ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Do not get focused on one operation...            01/01/70 00:00      
                              any 8-bit instruction can exist in a 32-bit processor            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Yes, but does it?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    So have you looked at any other processors?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       not a point of disagreement, but you missed it anyway            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          A good point            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             beg to differ            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Disagree entirely!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Yes, auto-increment/decrement is standard and not "feature"            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             What I wanted to point out ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Same same all the time. no "one size fits".            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   and the most important point is (drumroll) ....            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Comparing Apples to Oranges            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Prices are comparable            01/01/70 00:00      
               Parallel processing            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Sweeping generalisation!            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Not a magic silver bullit            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Fond memories            01/01/70 00:00      
                        A magic bullet            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Most concepts already exists in the wild            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Another generalisation            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Speed vs latency            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Why 8051?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Isn't it obvious?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    ARM simpler than 8051            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Generalisation            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          ARM 'MCUs' have their limitations too!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             You normally engineer with a backup plan            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    No, it's not!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Im just trying to provide an argument            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          x bits are just one parameter among many            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Avoiding the issue            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Avoiding what issue?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          They say it because it's true!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          RE: ARM is not the only 32-bitter            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Please don'g generalize            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Heterogenous multiprocessing widespread            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Re: Multicore 8051            01/01/70 00:00      
                     ALU chaining            01/01/70 00:00      
   Well... maybe            01/01/70 00:00      
      A Linear Accelerator?            01/01/70 00:00      
         Its one of these            01/01/70 00:00      
      please, repeat            01/01/70 00:00      
         All I was saying was            01/01/70 00:00      
   So what the '51 are good for...            01/01/70 00:00      
      Not terribly helpful            01/01/70 00:00      
         Always up to the developers            01/01/70 00:00      
            RE: The manufacturers tells us...            01/01/70 00:00      
               Sales - "may be used for" presented as "recommended"            01/01/70 00:00      
               pretty hot, low-power and small            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Automotive...            01/01/70 00:00      
         but answers your original question (at least the one...            01/01/70 00:00      
         MCS51 still rocking !!!            01/01/70 00:00      
            Scale            01/01/70 00:00      
            Missing the point            01/01/70 00:00      
               Impossible to generalize into fields            01/01/70 00:00      
                  An appropriate generalisation...            01/01/70 00:00      
               You are right..Andy Neil            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Cheers!            01/01/70 00:00      
                     No..only AT89C52 can be used            01/01/70 00:00      
                        why do you insist on Atmel?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        what a strange post            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Tools?            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Multiple manufactuers with (almost) identical chips            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Getting better            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Unified interrupt controller is really great            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Yes, even with free tools for PIC/AVR            01/01/70 00:00      
                              I mean no offense, but ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Similar difficulties coming to 8051/2?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Same same            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Is it your purchase price or why so sure AVR or PIC are off?            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Answer to Per and Erik...            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Living in the past            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Thanks John D. Maniraj            01/01/70 00:00      
                     locking            01/01/70 00:00      
                        RE: Locking            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Agreed, but            01/01/70 00:00      
                           fairly easy            01/01/70 00:00      
      Don't forget consumer devices            01/01/70 00:00      
         A perfect application            01/01/70 00:00      
   8051 vs ARM            01/01/70 00:00      
   just thought of one case            01/01/70 00:00      

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