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???
06/23/10 06:29
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#176849 - Yes, auto-increment/decrement is standard and not "feature"
Responding to: ???'s previous message
Yes, Richard. Even a $1 ARM does have auto-increment/auto-decrement. Cheap or expensive just affects amount of RAM, flash, max clock speed, pins and peripherial bells and whistles. There will still be an ARM core inside, or it wouldn't be an ARM chip.

With the possible exception of some 8-bit processors, there are hardly any new processors released for a good many years that does not have auto-decrement and auto-increment as standard - normally not on one or two dedicated index registers but as standard on the full set of general-purpose registers. The 32-bit processors have the advantage that they normally don't need dedicated index registers since a general-purpose register is wide enough to address 4GB of memory space. Removing the separation between GP registers and index registers means that you get the full advantage of multiply etc (Ax+B is a required operation for finding the offset of an element in an array) but when performing indexed lookup, many of the processors also have a separate addressing engine to allow the sum of two registers (or a register + offset) to be used - and to allow one of the values to be scaled, representing the stride size of an array.

Auto-increment/decrement are not seen as features, so they are not mentioned in any feature lists. The availability of them are similar to the availability of an ALU.

Last time we discussed this, I did mention this. But the chip I used for comparison at that time ended up (I think) at 72ns while your 8051 managed 60ns. So you decided to ignore ARM processors. But there are many, many ARM processors available and they span a large performance range just as 8051 chips does. And there are many other architectures that also may be applicable for a design. The biggest advantage with ARM chips isn't that they are the worlds best processor cores, but that the same set of tools can be used with so varying chips. ARM sells the core, which means that the manufacturers will have to spend time making their chips unique and well-placed by making sure that they add the peripherials that the end-users wants. Almost all of the competition is the availability of good add-ons at a low price. The same thing doesn't normally happen if looking at 32-bit processors of other architectures. Atmel and PIC have proprietary 32-bit architectures, reducing the competition. And there are too few PPC or MIPS manufacturers.

A normal 100-pin chip with 0.8mm spacing is harder to hand-solder for a single prototype. But not more expensive for real production. It does not require extra high-grade PCB and it is well within the capabilities of the standard component pickers/placers. Nothing strange with soldering them either. The ability to get a 48-pin or 100-pin or 144-pin or ... chip means that each and every design can optimize the amount of external components.

The $1 price I mentioned is not for single unit - when I need a single unit of something, I don't care about the price unless it is consuming a significant percentage of my salary.

I mostly use NXP ARM chips, and I think the $1.5 .. $2 price I mentioned was $2 at 100 units (a chip in the LPC13xx series). The NXP chips are not the cheapest, but they tend to have very good peripherials making the chips nice and easy to use.

List of 104 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
So What Is An 8051/2 Good For?            01/01/70 00:00      
   thoughts            01/01/70 00:00      
      The Future of the 805x            01/01/70 00:00      
         PARC            01/01/70 00:00      
            Bigger Hammers            01/01/70 00:00      
               re: Bigger Hammers            01/01/70 00:00      
               The opposite problem seems more common here!            01/01/70 00:00      
         Would Toyota have had the problem if ...            01/01/70 00:00      
            Toyota: Case in point            01/01/70 00:00      
            RE: Toyota            01/01/70 00:00      
               It was a mechanical fix ...            01/01/70 00:00      
            Parallel Processing            01/01/70 00:00      
               Sometimes the practical reality is of little consequence            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Totally Agree, but I was looking for a magic bullet            01/01/70 00:00      
                  RE: "outperform"            01/01/70 00:00      
                     There are some operations ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                        rephrased            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Now, you are extrapolating            01/01/70 00:00      
                           good points, but            01/01/70 00:00      
                              How many 8051 chips uses 0.13u?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 not yet            01/01/70 00:00      
                           not exactly ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Do not get focused on one operation...            01/01/70 00:00      
                              any 8-bit instruction can exist in a 32-bit processor            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Yes, but does it?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    So have you looked at any other processors?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       not a point of disagreement, but you missed it anyway            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          A good point            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             beg to differ            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Disagree entirely!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Yes, auto-increment/decrement is standard and not "feature"            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             What I wanted to point out ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Same same all the time. no "one size fits".            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   and the most important point is (drumroll) ....            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Comparing Apples to Oranges            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Prices are comparable            01/01/70 00:00      
               Parallel processing            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Sweeping generalisation!            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Not a magic silver bullit            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Fond memories            01/01/70 00:00      
                        A magic bullet            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Most concepts already exists in the wild            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Another generalisation            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Speed vs latency            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Why 8051?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Isn't it obvious?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    ARM simpler than 8051            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Generalisation            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          ARM 'MCUs' have their limitations too!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             You normally engineer with a backup plan            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    No, it's not!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Im just trying to provide an argument            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          x bits are just one parameter among many            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Avoiding the issue            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Avoiding what issue?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          They say it because it's true!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          RE: ARM is not the only 32-bitter            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Please don'g generalize            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Heterogenous multiprocessing widespread            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Re: Multicore 8051            01/01/70 00:00      
                     ALU chaining            01/01/70 00:00      
   Well... maybe            01/01/70 00:00      
      A Linear Accelerator?            01/01/70 00:00      
         Its one of these            01/01/70 00:00      
      please, repeat            01/01/70 00:00      
         All I was saying was            01/01/70 00:00      
   So what the '51 are good for...            01/01/70 00:00      
      Not terribly helpful            01/01/70 00:00      
         Always up to the developers            01/01/70 00:00      
            RE: The manufacturers tells us...            01/01/70 00:00      
               Sales - "may be used for" presented as "recommended"            01/01/70 00:00      
               pretty hot, low-power and small            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Automotive...            01/01/70 00:00      
         but answers your original question (at least the one...            01/01/70 00:00      
         MCS51 still rocking !!!            01/01/70 00:00      
            Scale            01/01/70 00:00      
            Missing the point            01/01/70 00:00      
               Impossible to generalize into fields            01/01/70 00:00      
                  An appropriate generalisation...            01/01/70 00:00      
               You are right..Andy Neil            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Cheers!            01/01/70 00:00      
                     No..only AT89C52 can be used            01/01/70 00:00      
                        why do you insist on Atmel?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        what a strange post            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Tools?            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Multiple manufactuers with (almost) identical chips            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Getting better            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Unified interrupt controller is really great            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Yes, even with free tools for PIC/AVR            01/01/70 00:00      
                              I mean no offense, but ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Similar difficulties coming to 8051/2?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Same same            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Is it your purchase price or why so sure AVR or PIC are off?            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Answer to Per and Erik...            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Living in the past            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Thanks John D. Maniraj            01/01/70 00:00      
                     locking            01/01/70 00:00      
                        RE: Locking            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Agreed, but            01/01/70 00:00      
                           fairly easy            01/01/70 00:00      
      Don't forget consumer devices            01/01/70 00:00      
         A perfect application            01/01/70 00:00      
   8051 vs ARM            01/01/70 00:00      
   just thought of one case            01/01/70 00:00      

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