Email: Password: Remember Me | Create Account (Free)

Back to Subject List

Old thread has been locked -- no new posts accepted in this thread
???
04/23/06 21:15
Read: times


 
#114833 - More facts
Responding to: ???'s previous message
Joseph Hebert said:
Hi Jeff (and Steve and Jez et al),
I looked up what I could on the age of the universe discrepancy. The age that everyone here seems to be accepting is the Hubble age (10 to 20 billion years).


Hubble Space Telescope measurements put the age between 13 and 14 billion years. Theoretical calculations put it at 13.7 plus or minus 0.2 billion years. Google "age of universe".


So, if you insist, I will accept your estimation of the age of the universe at 10 to 20 E+9 years. Doing so only strengthens my position.


Non sequitur.


But before you start preaching the Hubble estimate as gospel, I would point out that it includes (at least implicitely) the assumption of open expansion. I know of no one in the field who will accept open expansion as anything more than one possibility.


The three possibilities are: Closed universe - eventually will reverse and collapse, open universe - will expand forever, static universe - expansion will slow to zero but universe will not collapse. Which happens depends on the actual value of the cosmological constant. It is so close to zero that it seems wildly improbable that it isn't exactly zero.


As for my math, I will see if and when I might have time to put something together, assuming I can shorten it enough to post at all. But let's not forget that I am not trying to prove anything to you. You are the one who insists that 4 to 5 billion years is time enough for natural selection to drive evolution through random mutation. So lets see your (or anyone else's) calculations. I don't mind being the only one putting forth an idea for others to poke at, but I would like to see substantive poking as opposed to mere truth by assertion. After all, anyone can assert anything they like.


Point taken. But here's the deal: It has taken me more than 40 years to collect all the (scientifically verifiable) information upon which my opinions are based. Even if I had keep records of all the sources of said info, I lack the time to collect them all and this forum lacks the space to present them. That's why I invited you to "do the research". The facts are there for anyone to obtain, but it's each person's responsibility to educate themselves.

That said, I can offer some starting points. Study a lot of math, especially finite automata and statistics. Study the behavior of complex systems (which act as if intelligently guided even when no intelligence is involved--eg: some political and economic systems, artificial life simulations, etc). Low level biology is also informative, ie how clays and basic organic chemistry interact to form self-replicating molecules. Paleontology, physiology, and anthropology are important also. And of course physics.

Bottom line is that the (non)existence of God is not a scientific issue. It's solely a matter of faith (a word which has essentially the same definition as gullibility). The fact of evolution is a scientific issue, and the evidence is as about as conclusive as anything can be.

I respect the right of anyone to believe what they choose (although I don't necessarily respect what they choose to believe). I object to presenting matters of faith as if they where fact when they are not.



List of 59 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
Food for thought            01/01/70 00:00      
   i dunno about god            01/01/70 00:00      
   It comes to my mind that...            01/01/70 00:00      
      ah well            01/01/70 00:00      
         Evolution            01/01/70 00:00      
            Reference            01/01/70 00:00      
   teps            01/01/70 00:00      
   Secular humanism            01/01/70 00:00      
      timescales            01/01/70 00:00      
         Not any more            01/01/70 00:00      
         the New Testament and Kurasawa            01/01/70 00:00      
      Maths            01/01/70 00:00      
         Math            01/01/70 00:00      
            Science versus faith            01/01/70 00:00      
               Young Earth            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Figures are way out            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Myth and reason            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Arcana            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Kamiokande            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Kamiokande            01/01/70 00:00      
            Get the facts            01/01/70 00:00      
               Facts            01/01/70 00:00      
                  More facts            01/01/70 00:00      
                  NOT "random"            01/01/70 00:00      
                     "Random" in context            01/01/70 00:00      
                        evolution            01/01/70 00:00      
                  truth by assertion            01/01/70 00:00      
         Math and evolution            01/01/70 00:00      
   How God created me.            01/01/70 00:00      
      It's just a simulation ...            01/01/70 00:00      
         or like i do            01/01/70 00:00      
            Maybe he won't do it the same way            01/01/70 00:00      
               zero is quite far            01/01/70 00:00      
                  The only thing MEN can do ...            01/01/70 00:00      
   Watch the Movie Tron.            01/01/70 00:00      
   me and steve            01/01/70 00:00      
   My stands            01/01/70 00:00      
   4000 to 40000 religions            01/01/70 00:00      
      politicians            01/01/70 00:00      
   Google            01/01/70 00:00      
      Way to find useful info            01/01/70 00:00      
         Science of DiscWorld            01/01/70 00:00      
         proof            01/01/70 00:00      
            its called a markov chain            01/01/70 00:00      
            The fallacy            01/01/70 00:00      
            The answer is in the math            01/01/70 00:00      
               Not strictly true            01/01/70 00:00      
      reliable sources            01/01/70 00:00      
   creation            01/01/70 00:00      
      OMNIpotence            01/01/70 00:00      
         Who says ?            01/01/70 00:00      
            Simplicity.            01/01/70 00:00      
               Unassailable            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Almost, but not quite omnipotent.            01/01/70 00:00      
            omnipitant beings are meaningless            01/01/70 00:00      
               Works for me            01/01/70 00:00      
      If we think, every thin is ............            01/01/70 00:00      
   lol            01/01/70 00:00      
   That about wraps it up for God.            01/01/70 00:00      

Back to Subject List