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04/23/06 18:28
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#114820 - Young Earth
Responding to: ???'s previous message
Hi again Steve,

You are quite correct that I am a long way from the "Young Earth" creationists, those who hold to a 24 hour creation day, precisely because of the problem you just raised (and because that is not what scripture says). In order for the "Young Earth" people to be correct they are forced to conclude that God created the world with what they term, "the appearance of age." In other words, they must assert that God deceived people, and as a Christian I reject any theory that casts God as a deceiver.

As for the age of the universe, high energy physicists place the age at 10^32 to 10^33 years based on their observations. The last time I read anything about it they were conducting an experiment (I believe it was called ISIS, but I could be wrong so don't quote me) to try and observe a proton decay. As I recall (again, a suspect standard), they expected to observe a proton decay within a few years if the age was closer to 10^32 years. I suspect you are confusing the age of our solar system with the age of the universe. Even our galaxy is far more than billions of years old.

You also raise another good point, that only faith can account for the existence of a benevolent creator God. Science can not. From a secular perspective you need only to read Kurt Godel's 1934 article, "On formally undecidable propositions of the Principia Mathematica and related systems," (the German publication Monatschafte fur Mathematik und Physik, but don't hold me to the spelling) to find this proven mathematically. Of course, the same article also proves that science will never be able to disprove God (as you had already concluded independantly).

My only point about evolution is not whether it did or did not occur. My point is that if you do an objective quantitative analysis you must conclude that natural selection is insufficient, not sufficient, to account for evolution if the mutations are random. You will find that the average time necessary for an average species to evolve from its directly antecedent species, if left to random mutations and natural selection, is astronomically many times the age of the whole universe (not just our galaxy, solar system and/or planet). And that's only for one step in a whole evolutionary sequence which gets us from primordial ooze to rocket science. The problem becomes even more intractible when you consider the number of steps necessary for any single higher order species to have evolved into existence (parallel chains notwithstanding).

In the end it is important to understand that no corporeal reason can prove God. There is certainly no impetus to conclude that the discriminating influence required for evolution to account for our world is necessarily a benevolent creator. But as a scientist you absolutely must recognize that what is being suggested by random mutation and natural selection can not withstand scrutiny. You can choose to attribute this "discriminating force" to something heretofore unknown, to be discovered in the future, but if you insist on holding to the mantra of random mutations directed only by natural selection, then you have just traded one scientifically untenable belief for another.



List of 59 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
Food for thought            01/01/70 00:00      
   i dunno about god            01/01/70 00:00      
   It comes to my mind that...            01/01/70 00:00      
      ah well            01/01/70 00:00      
         Evolution            01/01/70 00:00      
            Reference            01/01/70 00:00      
   teps            01/01/70 00:00      
   Secular humanism            01/01/70 00:00      
      timescales            01/01/70 00:00      
         Not any more            01/01/70 00:00      
         the New Testament and Kurasawa            01/01/70 00:00      
      Maths            01/01/70 00:00      
         Math            01/01/70 00:00      
            Science versus faith            01/01/70 00:00      
               Young Earth            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Figures are way out            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Myth and reason            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Arcana            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Kamiokande            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Kamiokande            01/01/70 00:00      
            Get the facts            01/01/70 00:00      
               Facts            01/01/70 00:00      
                  More facts            01/01/70 00:00      
                  NOT "random"            01/01/70 00:00      
                     "Random" in context            01/01/70 00:00      
                        evolution            01/01/70 00:00      
                  truth by assertion            01/01/70 00:00      
         Math and evolution            01/01/70 00:00      
   How God created me.            01/01/70 00:00      
      It's just a simulation ...            01/01/70 00:00      
         or like i do            01/01/70 00:00      
            Maybe he won't do it the same way            01/01/70 00:00      
               zero is quite far            01/01/70 00:00      
                  The only thing MEN can do ...            01/01/70 00:00      
   Watch the Movie Tron.            01/01/70 00:00      
   me and steve            01/01/70 00:00      
   My stands            01/01/70 00:00      
   4000 to 40000 religions            01/01/70 00:00      
      politicians            01/01/70 00:00      
   Google            01/01/70 00:00      
      Way to find useful info            01/01/70 00:00      
         Science of DiscWorld            01/01/70 00:00      
         proof            01/01/70 00:00      
            its called a markov chain            01/01/70 00:00      
            The fallacy            01/01/70 00:00      
            The answer is in the math            01/01/70 00:00      
               Not strictly true            01/01/70 00:00      
      reliable sources            01/01/70 00:00      
   creation            01/01/70 00:00      
      OMNIpotence            01/01/70 00:00      
         Who says ?            01/01/70 00:00      
            Simplicity.            01/01/70 00:00      
               Unassailable            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Almost, but not quite omnipotent.            01/01/70 00:00      
            omnipitant beings are meaningless            01/01/70 00:00      
               Works for me            01/01/70 00:00      
      If we think, every thin is ............            01/01/70 00:00      
   lol            01/01/70 00:00      
   That about wraps it up for God.            01/01/70 00:00      

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