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???
03/18/12 19:15
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#186774 - Nothing. has been proven yet.
Responding to: ???'s previous message
Erik Malund said:
<ui>Adding more capacitance between logic power and gnd will increase the rise and fall time of Vcc with respect to Gnd,
I know that you, with your supervisor chip avoidance, have a fixation with that I, like most others, DO NOT!!!

Erik


I don't know what you mean. I've experimented with supervisors of various sorts. I've also experimented with various sorts of regulators and power sources.

I've found that, in my own experience, those brownout bugaboos relating to program-store-content-loss that trouble the 805x community at large, don't make themselves apparent when the Vcc supply rise and fall times are very short. I don't deny that there are other brownout-related problems, but just hitting the RESET doesn't always solve those problems. Since there are different levels at which various devices perceive "out-of-spec" Vcc, the behaviors of MCU's, supervisors, BBRAM's, and other devices can be very hard to predict as Vcc wanders around the 4.5-volt level. Some devices will respond as though it's a brownout, while others will not. They don't all have the same hysteresis, either. I know the Dallas BBRAM's that I was using when I first encountered some of these anomalies don't behave in the same way as the Dallas MCU's built-in brownout detector does.

Additionally, I've observed that supervisors do absolutely nothing useful during the power-down transient, aside from activating the RESET. My argument is, once again, that nothing guarantees what happens when RESET is active but Vcc is below the acceptable level. Additionally, as I've pointed out, not all devices have a RESET input.

Many people think that a large capacitor will compensate for an under-specified raw input to the on-board regulator. Some think that additional capacitance on the output of their on-board regulator will solve the too-weak-input problem. I am not among them. Designing with a 20% margin of safety ijnto the raw input supply might be cheaper in the long run than adding extra Vcc-to-Gnd capacitance, and it causes no increase in Vcc rise and fall times.

While I'm forced by circumstance to respect the general opinion that a supervisor will, in general, make these problems "go away," I know that nobody has made the assertion that they've spent any time testing that notion. Consequntly it's just an unproven hypothesis.

I'm still convinced that the guys at Intel couldn't get their oscillator to start reliably, so they used a RESET time-constant long enough to convince their boss that it would start most of the time, rather than figuring out how to do it properly. The FLASH-corruption issue didn't come about until FLASH-based program store became a reality. This makes the supervisor look more like a fig-leaf rather than a solution. Maybe someone with a real motivation will actually spend the time and resources to perform rigorous testing on the function of the supervisor in this environment rather than allowing it to continue to float in the fog.

RE






List of 66 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
Sine wave detection on microcontroller            01/01/70 00:00      
   Detect or measure?            01/01/70 00:00      
      not detection, measurement of sine wave signal            01/01/70 00:00      
         What are you measuring?            01/01/70 00:00      
            RMS and Average - 1st Priority            01/01/70 00:00      
               415 v            01/01/70 00:00      
                  I have to do using MCU            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Start simple            01/01/70 00:00      
                        if time is major isssue than.....            01/01/70 00:00      
                           People responding to specific questions            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Same Technique....            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 RMS            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Sorry for my laziness            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 So what have you done?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Require more work...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Working on that            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       options, options            01/01/70 00:00      
   Help me            01/01/70 00:00      
      Okay            01/01/70 00:00      
         Are many threads available            01/01/70 00:00      
      when you save a char ...            01/01/70 00:00      
      Why don't you specify your problem COMPLETELY?            01/01/70 00:00      
         Already specify it            01/01/70 00:00      
            there are some details?            01/01/70 00:00      
               comparisions            01/01/70 00:00      
                  How are you calculating your needed sample rate?            01/01/70 00:00      
                     start with simple one....            01/01/70 00:00      
                        You do know sin(90+angle)? Or 2-log computations?            01/01/70 00:00      
                           ADC resolution............            01/01/70 00:00      
                              impossible or wrong            01/01/70 00:00      
                              double post, ignore            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Precision Rectify:            01/01/70 00:00      
                     SCR Chopped Wave            01/01/70 00:00      
                        What accuracy do you need?            01/01/70 00:00      
                           CT accuracy            01/01/70 00:00      
                              the fundamental            01/01/70 00:00      
                              50Hz            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Precision rectifier is suitable for any waveform            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 are u sure??            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Depends            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    must be severely bandwidth limited            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Maybe was circuit with top-voltage capacitor            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Sorry for confusion            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          What accuracy do you need?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             360/1024            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Not what he (or me) have asked            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   you are right....            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Do you believe you can protect your circuit from noise?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Very Noisy environment            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      re Very Noisy environment            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Some of those rules are showing their age            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            here we go again            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               think about this for a minute            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  when discussing a FAQ            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Well, when were those cap sizes determined?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        Technology            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           Steady state currents do not need decaps            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              Often low capacitance so limited charge. But remember load.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        fixations            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           Nothing. has been proven yet.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              once more for the peanut gallery            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 Where you sit determines what you see ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    Off-topic            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       difficult when ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       Yes ... I don't know how we got here either            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          i do            01/01/70 00:00      

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