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???
01/04/11 14:29
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#180448 - Introduce a computer or introduce how to program
Responding to: ???'s previous message
Andy Neil said:
Oliver Sedlacek said:
... Pascal ... was designed as a teaching language ...

So was BASIC!


But tremendously different criteria.

BASIC was intended to get you very, very quickly started. So you got 7-year-olds playing with BASIC as soon as they could read and write. The goal was to be easy to use. Not to teach how to program. BASIC is good to teach people just that a computer isn't something magical, but a slightly more complex pocket calculator. It shows how multiple small instructions can be combined into a something that can run and perform real tasks.

Pascal wasn't intended to optimize for low age of the user or number of lines to get you your first "hello world" but was designed to teach programmers how to write well-crafted applications. So it isn't aimed at "to be able to program" but in "how to program". This obviously makes Pascal many, many times better as language for writing larger programs. Local variables and nested functions solves the name-space pollution problem you quickly get when the size of a program grows. At the same time, it allows the developer to maintain locality-of-reference by having the majority of variables and functions declared close to where they are used, reducing the need to memorize thousands of symbols.

C was designed for production use. Not to teach people how to program, or how computers can be used, but to create real programs for solving real-world problems. So much rougher design, optimized for power. Something that is much more needed when working with embedded processors than for PC programs. So while C is the darling language of embedded developers, much new PC programming is performed in other languages.

In short:
- BASIC: introduces how you can get a computer to do something
- Pascal: introduce how to craft applications
- C: focus on commercial programming when you need to "own" the hardware and get it to jump on request.

List of 76 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
Partial decoding of external memory...            01/01/70 00:00      
   8 bit DATA Space            01/01/70 00:00      
      aka "PDATA"            01/01/70 00:00      
   Adres Latch            01/01/70 00:00      
      corrections to all the above replies            01/01/70 00:00      
         Partial decoding of external memory...            01/01/70 00:00      
            There are two locations in the LCD            01/01/70 00:00      
               Re: There are two locations in the LCD            01/01/70 00:00      
                  timing is the reason ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                     one fact expanded            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Thanks for the advice...            01/01/70 00:00      
                        still?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Maybe it wouldn't hurt to spend time reading the datasheet            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Checking out the Datasheets...            01/01/70 00:00      
                              That's interesting ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Not all BASIC are the same            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    does that apply to BASCOM?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       "improvements" or extensions?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Modern versions of BASIC            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Re: That's interesting ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Programming on the Fringe            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Re: Programming on the Fringe            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          To PC or not - but avoid dead ends            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          I'd recommend you think some more about all that            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             That's the key!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Brain pollution            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                re: teaching language            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Introduce a computer or introduce how to program            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Initial attraction is fundamental flaw            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Which concepts do you find particularly hard to grasp?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Pointers are normally the main problem when learning C            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Is the problem specifically 'C', though?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          pointers aren't unique to 'C'            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Pointers            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Big difference in concept - C actually unusual            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Remember PEEK and POKE            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Pointers            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Pointers and type-safety            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          big problems            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Wrong direction            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                goes both ways            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Re: Which concepts do you find particularly hard to grasp?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Not a casual subject            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Re: Not a casual subject            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                I think it's already been said in this thread...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                one C book should do            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Manzi?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   It might not hurt to do this in a different sequence            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Re: one C book should do            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Language matters            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      you haven't seen ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Yes, but...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Languages helps but isn't enough            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Re: you haven't seen ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            RE: been looking at snippets            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               Re: been looking at snippets            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Details in standard + compiler manual            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                      a book doesn't detail everything            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     You need to study the compiler documentation            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        You need to lean the language first!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           my point was ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        Re: You need to study the compiler documentation            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           Go directly for C            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              i second this            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              Re: Go Directly to C            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 C support            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           the big advantage of PASCAL is            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              C isn't that dangerous if caring for compiler warnings            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 So ... C++ is not of interest in this context            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    It's about bracketing claims            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       I did say, "in this context", didn't I?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          Be careful with your asides!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          Always give enough context to statements            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             OK ... I stand corrected            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                Separate thread!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                   I hoped someone would do that            01/01/70 00:00      

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