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???
04/10/12 06:56
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#187086 - But processes contains feedback loops
Responding to: ???'s previous message
Richard Erlacher said:
You've still got this all wrong ... Documentation isn't part of the analysis phase, analysis is part of the documentation phase. Moreover, there's no part of research that happens by coding, but then, there'll never be a way to convince YOU, PER the great.

RE

You can't find me wrong about something I haven't said. Or wait a minute. Yes, Richard - you can. But then, you are living in a different world. You are screening every line of text you read based on a calendar year if 1970. Which means that you regularly have to fill in the blanks when a concept doesn't fit the current knowledge in existence 1970.

Next thing: For some reason it seems to be 100% impossible for you to realize that research often does require coding. You can't sit and look at a wall and do real-life research. There are experiments. There are prototypes. There are evaluations.

Research normally includes lots, and lots of coding.

It may include things like: "what will the CPU load be for software-only tone detection of DTMF tones?" Or "what is highest baudrate for a software-only modem on this processor". All because the answer to the above tells if it will be cheaper with a sw-only solution or with dedicated hardware outside. And the above is still a trivial case since the research part is only about consumed resources - not about actual behaviour.

In many situations, the full problem is too complex to solve perfectly. So the task is to find what is good enough. Which stimuli can be ignored? Which stimuli can be approximated? Which stimuli must be measured with high precision or at high speed, and which stimuli can be sampled very seldom? Which stimuli must take precedence? What will be the end result if predication is used? So prototypes are built. Prototypes containing real code. And with good software engineering, that code will be modified multiple times until the total hw/sw design can be shown to solve the problem. At which case the project do not throw away the code, spends months writing a full design document, and then starts coding from scratch. For some reason, companies wants to make money - the main goal is not to employ software developers.

No, Richard. There is no way you can convince me for the simple reason that I would not be allowed to create a full design document based on fantasies (it will be fantasies if not backed by practical tests by me or someone else) and then force someone to write a complete program based exactly on that design and then ship it. Unless possibly the goal is to make a lamp timer, in which case the problem to solve is trivial - there are no research other than to find good components. It's only an engineering task to solve a fixed problem resulting in a competitive product. But then I would probably not be involved - western companies can't compete with this kind of products.

I just never do projects where the goal is to duplicate the exact behavior of an existing product - potentially after one of the components have gone off the market. Companies don't want to duplicate old products - they want products that separates them from their competitors. It's basically the users of a product who might want a replacement copy. The rest of the world wants to figure out what progress there can be, based on advances in other areas.

In the end, the feasibility study at the start of a project normally do contain coding, because no other engineering methods can show something feasible. Especially when feasible includes cost as an important term. It's irrelevant if code can be written for a specific task, if the hardware will be too expensive.

In the end, documentation must be interwoven with coding. There can't be any coding only after the documentation is written expect for trivial projects. You can't just sit down and write a complete design specification for the main electronics controller of a car. You might be able to copy a previous design, but then you obviously have made use of the results from previous coding. In the end, it's all about complexities. We can't document what we don't understand. And to understand, we need prototyping and testing.

Next thing is that many projects are so large, that they aren't economical/practical to perform as a single step. So the project is splitted into many spins. And these spins can't even be fully described either, because some part of the spin is based on roadmap and some parts are based on ongoing feedback from users/testers of previous spins.

You write a subject "It's not about me ... it's about process". But then you still seem to miss that it really is about process. Take a closer at real-life processes. Doesn't matter if it's programming, customer relations, chemistry or something else. Processes normally contains feedback loops. They have iterative patterns, for the simple reason that most processes don't have access to enough input information and a complex enough computation engine to go directly to a final result.

Real-life problems have flowcharts where each box requires a flowchart - and that flowchart will probably also need flowcharts to represent the individual boxes. But then, Richard - please tell us any big, commercial, company that don't make prototypes. After all - prototypes aren't needed if everything can be documented before the first code line is written. That must obviously translate the same for the electronics, mechanics, ... in the product. In a real world, the people who don't need prototypes are the ones who just duplicate someone elses product.

List of 92 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
has linux had its chips?            01/01/70 00:00      
   some weirdo in sandals a ponytail            01/01/70 00:00      
      Problem is            01/01/70 00:00      
      possibly, but not only            01/01/70 00:00      
      It's all in the history ... and "read the code" doesn't work            01/01/70 00:00      
         Good points!            01/01/70 00:00      
            Why not a firm objective?            01/01/70 00:00      
               Lots of projects have a large percentage research            01/01/70 00:00      
                  I knew you'd have to come in with something irrelevant            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Try document an invention before it's invented...            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Here's some research for you, Per            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Richard to give an example            01/01/70 00:00      
                              I'd like YOU, Erik, to come up with one example ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Always prejudice from Richard            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 'documenting' means many things            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 here we go again            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    when you're wrong, you're wrong            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       I do not have a microscope and probes that small            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          So you've made no observations ... you just guessed ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             and that irks you immensely            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                What did you do, aside from guessing?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   then please, tell me            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Are you willing to explore this in detail?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         now you are jumping            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Your references aren't exactly backing your view            01/01/70 00:00      
                              It's not about me ... it's about process            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 But processes contains feedback loops            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    I believe you've gone off-the-rails, Per            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       But getty isn't Linux            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          it's a small piece, but it's an example            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             But not of Linux            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                It was part of the distribution.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 'Research' can mean many things            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Yes, but that's in a different context            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       You still haven't told what Linux documentation you miss            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          I don't know what you mean            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Still claims based on assumptions and not facts            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Not everyone is completely stupid            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   But what is the relevance today?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      I've no opinion about the current LINUX            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         and, you Richard, who loves living in the past            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            just a minute, Erik            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               Examples?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Nothing has changed since 15 years ago ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     at least not Richards opinions :)            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Still lots of assumptions and unbacked claims            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Oh, Richard, I have a job for you            01/01/70 00:00      
                           I had Yourdons first book as manuscript and ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                              be careful ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 were you once a bartender ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    You have to accept the difference ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 We are careful            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Hog Wash.....            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Odd that you see it that way ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                     I just documented fully            01/01/70 00:00      
               Because an "Objective" is not a final product specification            01/01/70 00:00      
                  I have to disagree ... the objective specification is step 1            01/01/70 00:00      
            documentation            01/01/70 00:00      
               Definitely not the "usual response"            01/01/70 00:00      
   Android            01/01/70 00:00      
      I don't think so            01/01/70 00:00      
         Don't agree            01/01/70 00:00      
      all due respect, no.            01/01/70 00:00      
         Apple may have a price match on the superluxourious            01/01/70 00:00      
            re: Apple may have a price match on the superluxourious            01/01/70 00:00      
               but 95% of the population does not need....            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Web browsing normally the most power-hungry you can do            01/01/70 00:00      
                  re: 95%            01/01/70 00:00      
               So how exactly am I wrong?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  But Android is Linux            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Just the opposite            01/01/70 00:00      
                        {sigh}            01/01/70 00:00      
                           just like the preacher said to the atheist            01/01/70 00:00      
                  re: How exactly?            01/01/70 00:00      
      850000 Android phones activated per day, linux video            01/01/70 00:00      
   anecdotes...            01/01/70 00:00      
      These guys...            01/01/70 00:00      
         digital audio consoles            01/01/70 00:00      
   The Rasperry Pi Foundation clearly doesn't think so!            01/01/70 00:00      
      The world isn't just a few companies            01/01/70 00:00      
   the basic problem with free software is...            01/01/70 00:00      
      Careful with the use of "Linux". Most things "Linux" aren't!            01/01/70 00:00      
         I did refer to linux itself            01/01/70 00:00      
            Wrong hw selected, or just big lack of platform knowledge?            01/01/70 00:00      
               a port            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Always danger with low-level code for platform            01/01/70 00:00      
      True - but "paid-for" is not necessarily any better!            01/01/70 00:00      
         when selecting any tool            01/01/70 00:00      
      As Stallman said.....            01/01/70 00:00      
         free            01/01/70 00:00      
            All about volume or already existing knowledge/experience            01/01/70 00:00      
   Well...say what you like about me, and many people do.            01/01/70 00:00      

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