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???
11/10/09 23:29
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#170662 - Backpedalling on what?
Responding to: ???'s previous message
Erik Malund said:
a student is supposed to provide proof of concept, not product.

You keep backpeddaling on "this must be cheap, this must be 'pretty', this must be.."

It has to be all of those things. First of all, it should be pretty so the instructor/professor will like it and it must be well designed and well executed so that a knowledgeable instructor/professor will like it. Secondly, it has to be affordable by any student. Not every student has the sort of budget that would be demanded by one 8x8 array as you, Erik, have suggested, for every character. Neither would it have been possible for me, though I went to a very much top-flight college, and grad-school, to get the school's machine shop to build me a panel for a project like this, nor would anyone have assigned such a project when I was a student. I was only 14 years old, as a freshman, so the $20 or so per month that I had as surplus were adequate to cover supplies and the occasional printed matter that I required, and the transportation from Andover to Cambridge. However, I couldn't have invested the $4 or so that a case of beer might have cost fifty years ago, (being, then, too young to purchase beer, I wouldn't know).

I'm curious why you're trying to reduce this discussion to little more than another of your food-fights. If you have a clear point, feel free to make it, else please stop trying to force an otherwise general discussion of the issue into your mold.

Since I don't follow I certainly can't be claiming that it won't work. I'd just like to know how you would do this.
What is it you do not follow? To make such a sign you need a LED (or other controlled illumination) behind each character.

How many characters? How many words? How large a panel?

Since you've said that all that's needed is four of these 3-cm-wide-and-tall 8x8's I'm curious how you'd illuminate all the words on this apparently about 30 cm x 40 cm panel, or any panel large enough to contain all the needed words. I've already said to Per, I doubt one LED per character is necessary, and that it is probably excessive. He may have an approach that warrants such excess, but you've not indicated how you can take your four 8x8's and illuminate more than, say, six characters with 'em. I'd also be interested to know the benefit of multiplexing LED's in a display that requires individual LED's per character when there are only about forty words that have to be displayed, and many fewer, perhaps a half-dozen, at a time.

The whole charm of this sort of display lies in that the information is codified in words rather than characters. Further it's clear that very few (I'd guess two or, at most, three) LED's per word would be adequate.

Using the matrices I suggested you get 64 LEDs for $3 and the techniques for multiplexing LEDs are well known.

Erik


Yes the multiplexing is quite straightforward in most cases, but I see no benefit in multiplexing this sort of display. Perhaps you can inform me. Further, perhaps you can provide information about how you will move those four 8x8's around so they cover all the characters without any flicker. What sorts of motors would you use? How would you drive them with enough speed to do the job? Voice coil, perhaps?

RE



List of 126 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
Student project idea?            01/01/70 00:00      
   Being German in Nature...            01/01/70 00:00      
   rather costly for a student project, isn't it?            01/01/70 00:00      
      not necessarily            01/01/70 00:00      
         Dont you think that would be too difficult for a student?            01/01/70 00:00      
            Why moving-message?            01/01/70 00:00      
               How can he display all the text?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Then you've entirely missed the point!            01/01/70 00:00      
                     BTW: It actually does 1 minute resolution            01/01/70 00:00      
            Moving ????            01/01/70 00:00      
               Maybe you could be more specific            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Why so specific?            01/01/70 00:00      
                     but entirely too expensive ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                        who gives a friggin hoot            01/01/70 00:00      
                           and how does your 8x8 array apply?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Up to student to decide cost.            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Other options            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Interesting ... how does the student do that?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 I'm sure they'd figure that out...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Maybe you can enlighten me            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Mechanical Engineering            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Yes, that's the kind of thing.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             I once had a complete machine shop too ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                what sort of engravers/routers do you mean? [edited]            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   We keep forgetting about the costs            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Old news            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Apparently things have changed.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         eMachineShop.com ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Maybe            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               Another option ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Darn straight.            01/01/70 00:00      
                           look at the model again ... there is no matrix            01/01/70 00:00      
                              of course there is            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 but it's not the 8x8 LED matrix ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    One LED per character            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       If not cheaper than at least way faster            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Gee ... I'm not sure I follow ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Simple, simple, simple            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Why multiplex ... there are so few words ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Really is applicable            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Wait a minute ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      I never did            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         well, then, you should clarify            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            proof of concept, not product            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               Backpedalling on what?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Tiny budget for tiny clock            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Now go to the next step ... the word arrangement            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        I did my best            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           I caught that only after I asked            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              Many, but quite simple steps            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              At last!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 I wasn't asking you , Andy ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 I believe you overestimate the challenge, Andy            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    Not a first-year project            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       I'm not so sure ... maybe I'm out of touch ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    RE: I believe you overestimate the challenge            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       You'd be right ... except ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          Trivial?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             Those may not be as important as you think            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                Zero-crossing detection isn't suited...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                   Complexity quickly grows with scale            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          Frequency reference            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        SIGH            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           have you counted lines and characters            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Not spinning-arm display printing in air...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     are you missing a critical word?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        The word you require is...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           Oh! OK ... that works.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  signs for dummies            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Better selected dioder at custom locations for production            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      See each character as a bit in a small 11x10 bitmap            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         This is where you should explain a bit more            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            overly complex            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               I don't see it as overly complex.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  "MUCH" is relative            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     if you squint just right ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            I don't see how multiple LED's per character help anything.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               That seems reasonable            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      options            01/01/70 00:00      
                           That might work, but it would cost            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Cold optical process keeps plastic flat            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 That looks like the most straightforward way to do it!            01/01/70 00:00      
                              If you think that's a lot of LEDs, ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 just for fun            01/01/70 00:00      
                              once again, who gives a hoot            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Shouldn't a "proof of concept" demonstrate feasibility?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    What nonsense!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Good project - relatively easy but much room for own ideas            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          what the hell is REAL company???            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             A real company            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Not at all!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 No matter how well it works ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    That would be a very bad professor            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Unfortunately, you're wrong ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    What nonsense!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Look at some real examples - "Made In Brunel"            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       These items most certainly are well-finished            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Exactly            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Not all the characters are used            01/01/70 00:00      
                        8x8 modules don't care about unused characters            01/01/70 00:00      
                           other arrays are cheaper            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Depends on expectations of total size            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 that seems very nearly feasible ... and almost affordable            01/01/70 00:00      
   original site            01/01/70 00:00      
      Two languages not full            01/01/70 00:00      
         It works for me...            01/01/70 00:00      
            Filler characters            01/01/70 00:00      
   I was going to buy this guy....            01/01/70 00:00      
      Very expensive!            01/01/70 00:00      
         Yes, designer niches allows very high prices            01/01/70 00:00      
      Do you really think that manufacturing costs are low?            01/01/70 00:00      
         That's why I was complaining about cost!            01/01/70 00:00      
            You forget the costs...            01/01/70 00:00      
               Not exactly ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Mass market or unique low-volume status product            01/01/70 00:00      
                     I think a backlit LCD would work.            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Assumptions...            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Border needed for the look            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Not only...            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Cost of lenses including mounting?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 about those costs ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Individual taste...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    And one implementation            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       illuminating...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Man, look at how the light spills over            01/01/70 00:00      
   Or something more traditional, perhaps...?            01/01/70 00:00      

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