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11/09/09 01:17
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#170579 - Why multiplex ... there are so few words ...
Responding to: ???'s previous message
Per Westermark said:
Richard Erlacher said:
How, exactly, would you apply an 8x8 matrix display of the type Erik suggested to this problem? Are you assuming you can drive each LED independently? Just how would you arrange that? How many I/O's would it require? What other hardware?

This sort of clock uses words rather than characters, wouldn't you say? After all, it will say, "It is FIVE PAST FOUR", or "IT IS TEN TILL SEVEN", so the "IT IS" occurs quite frequently, while "NOON" may not occur so often.

How do you see the row/column organization of the 8x8 matrix working in this application? How would you adjust the brightness?

I am expecting a student to be able to figure that out.

You should be able to figure it out too.

We all had exposure to your thorough exposition of how to mux a moving display, so I'm sure that's (a) well-understood and (b)not particularly applicable to this problem.

Driving row/column-connected diodes is no harder than when creating a "moving" display. The only difference here is that the bitmap to emit only changes every 5 minutes if the four corner diodes are separately driven. Once/minute if they are part of the LED matrix forming the backlight.

Where you lose me is in the notion of a bitmap. Perhaps it is applicable, but since I believe the longest word to be eleven, assuming, for now, that there's to be 12-hour, rather than 24-hour display, no more than three LED's should be needed to illuminate that word, and fewer for most others. Since few words would be displayed, I see no need for multiplexing. Do you?

Using four 8x8 modules would require a maximum of 16+16 signals if accepting a bad 16-to-1 multiplexing. A more reasonable multiplexing would need a maximum of 32+8 signals. the 8 signals can be reduced to 3 with a 3-to-8 decoder.

But a 16x16 backlight is bigger than needed so it will be enough to worry about the 11x10 part. The display could then be controlled by 20+3 signals (20*2^3 = 160 diodes and we only need 110).

No problem for a normal microcontroller, so it should be possible to manage without any shift registers and clocking of the data.

All the microcontroller would have to do is drive two "scan-lines" for 2ms before switching to the next set. That would give 100Hz refresh rate.

Trivial code. Small code. Small CPU load.

Exactly what problems do you see? A student don't need to bother with constant-current drive. Having enough voltage to burn over series resistors will reduce the variance in current depending on the Vf of the individual diodes.


If you forget about multiplexing, as it's not likely to help, the code could easily take less than 1 kB of space and the static display would simply have to be updated minute-by-minute.

RE



List of 126 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
Student project idea?            01/01/70 00:00      
   Being German in Nature...            01/01/70 00:00      
   rather costly for a student project, isn't it?            01/01/70 00:00      
      not necessarily            01/01/70 00:00      
         Dont you think that would be too difficult for a student?            01/01/70 00:00      
            Why moving-message?            01/01/70 00:00      
               How can he display all the text?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Then you've entirely missed the point!            01/01/70 00:00      
                     BTW: It actually does 1 minute resolution            01/01/70 00:00      
            Moving ????            01/01/70 00:00      
               Maybe you could be more specific            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Why so specific?            01/01/70 00:00      
                     but entirely too expensive ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                        who gives a friggin hoot            01/01/70 00:00      
                           and how does your 8x8 array apply?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Up to student to decide cost.            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Other options            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Interesting ... how does the student do that?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 I'm sure they'd figure that out...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Maybe you can enlighten me            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Mechanical Engineering            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Yes, that's the kind of thing.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             I once had a complete machine shop too ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                what sort of engravers/routers do you mean? [edited]            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   We keep forgetting about the costs            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Old news            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Apparently things have changed.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         eMachineShop.com ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Maybe            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               Another option ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Darn straight.            01/01/70 00:00      
                           look at the model again ... there is no matrix            01/01/70 00:00      
                              of course there is            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 but it's not the 8x8 LED matrix ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    One LED per character            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       If not cheaper than at least way faster            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Gee ... I'm not sure I follow ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Simple, simple, simple            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Why multiplex ... there are so few words ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Really is applicable            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Wait a minute ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      I never did            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         well, then, you should clarify            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            proof of concept, not product            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               Backpedalling on what?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Tiny budget for tiny clock            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Now go to the next step ... the word arrangement            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        I did my best            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           I caught that only after I asked            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              Many, but quite simple steps            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              At last!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 I wasn't asking you , Andy ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 I believe you overestimate the challenge, Andy            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    Not a first-year project            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       I'm not so sure ... maybe I'm out of touch ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    RE: I believe you overestimate the challenge            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       You'd be right ... except ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          Trivial?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             Those may not be as important as you think            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                Zero-crossing detection isn't suited...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                   Complexity quickly grows with scale            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          Frequency reference            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        SIGH            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           have you counted lines and characters            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Not spinning-arm display printing in air...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     are you missing a critical word?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        The word you require is...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           Oh! OK ... that works.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  signs for dummies            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Better selected dioder at custom locations for production            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      See each character as a bit in a small 11x10 bitmap            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         This is where you should explain a bit more            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            overly complex            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               I don't see it as overly complex.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  "MUCH" is relative            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     if you squint just right ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            I don't see how multiple LED's per character help anything.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               That seems reasonable            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      options            01/01/70 00:00      
                           That might work, but it would cost            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Cold optical process keeps plastic flat            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 That looks like the most straightforward way to do it!            01/01/70 00:00      
                              If you think that's a lot of LEDs, ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 just for fun            01/01/70 00:00      
                              once again, who gives a hoot            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Shouldn't a "proof of concept" demonstrate feasibility?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    What nonsense!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Good project - relatively easy but much room for own ideas            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          what the hell is REAL company???            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             A real company            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Not at all!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 No matter how well it works ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    That would be a very bad professor            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Unfortunately, you're wrong ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    What nonsense!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Look at some real examples - "Made In Brunel"            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       These items most certainly are well-finished            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Exactly            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Not all the characters are used            01/01/70 00:00      
                        8x8 modules don't care about unused characters            01/01/70 00:00      
                           other arrays are cheaper            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Depends on expectations of total size            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 that seems very nearly feasible ... and almost affordable            01/01/70 00:00      
   original site            01/01/70 00:00      
      Two languages not full            01/01/70 00:00      
         It works for me...            01/01/70 00:00      
            Filler characters            01/01/70 00:00      
   I was going to buy this guy....            01/01/70 00:00      
      Very expensive!            01/01/70 00:00      
         Yes, designer niches allows very high prices            01/01/70 00:00      
      Do you really think that manufacturing costs are low?            01/01/70 00:00      
         That's why I was complaining about cost!            01/01/70 00:00      
            You forget the costs...            01/01/70 00:00      
               Not exactly ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Mass market or unique low-volume status product            01/01/70 00:00      
                     I think a backlit LCD would work.            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Assumptions...            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Border needed for the look            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Not only...            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Cost of lenses including mounting?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 about those costs ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Individual taste...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    And one implementation            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       illuminating...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Man, look at how the light spills over            01/01/70 00:00      
   Or something more traditional, perhaps...?            01/01/70 00:00      

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