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???
09/02/09 18:37
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#168705 - Quantity and quality seldom combinable
Responding to: ???'s previous message
Richard Erlacher said:
Per Westermark said:
...

No, I don't think you should count Bismarck or Tirpitz as big and blunt monuments instead of very efficient war machines.

It's not the effectiveness of the individual "war machines" but, rather, the environment within which they had to operate. With no air support and no destroyers that could keep up, however good they were, they were not suitable for the application.

But when they were lost, they had already been well worth it, since they did have such a big effect on naval operations.

Richard said:
It's the same way with MCU's, BTW. You can have a really good MCU in the circuit, but, without careful attention to support logic and power supply conditions, it won't matter how good it is.

Not really a matching comparison. In some cases, a product can be well worth it on its own, even if the rest of a chain can't match that single link. And sometimes, a short-term gain can be so big that it doesn't matter if the product can't keep up 12 months later. Possibly because the product was delivered at a good moment in time, or having a critical killer feature. You could say that the Canon 300D digital SLR camera wasn't so very good compared by todays cameras. But it was a camera that was way better than the competitors at a price no competitor could match. So it did kick-start the digital revolution by getting a large number of photographers to try the digital realm.

The start of the war ment that Germany could not produce follow-up ships capable of working with Bismarck or Tirpitz, so they could not gain 100% from Bismarck. But they still gained tremendously. Bismarck and Tirpitz had a combined weight of about 10% of the current Royal Navy. So much power concentrated into two ships made it quite hard to ignore them, and very, very dangerous to try to do anything about them.

Richard said:
U.S. software vendors have made the same mistake in the past, but nowadays, the trend is to compromise quality in favor of security. They spend ~10,000 man-hours on security and ~2000 on quality. The resulting evidence is everywhere!

No. They may spend 10,000 man-hours on license fights, creating the best sales presentation to make their investors happy, and making product changes that will make your currently working installation incompatible and in need of both a sw and hw update. No, I can't really see that they spend any significant time on security. The copy-protection schemes in Windows, Office etc may be very irritating and costly to the end users, but they do not represent any bigger investments from Microsoft.

The only companies that does invest heavily in security is the movie, game and music industry, with their DRM ploys. But even there, there are probably quite fiew engineering hours involved. Most is spent on lawyers, "supporting" politicians etc.

The reason why costs are cut from test departments is basically time-to-market, and that the product lifespans are so short that they are busy implementing the next generation product before the previous generation has been released, and are working with the plans for even newer generations. As soon as one or two companies have started to gain market shares by being first bringing more unusable features to the market, the competitors don't really have a choice. The problem isn't the manufacturers, but us stupid customers. As long as the majority of customers selects cheap or "cool" instead of making qualified decisions, the companies just have to send out cheap and/or "cool" products, even if they know that many of the features are truly ridiculous.

Who buys "german quality"? Some do, and don't care about the price. The majority don't, which means that the majority of the manufacturers have to design and build based in completely different criteria. That also means that the majority of all developers will just have to accept the requirements the management puts forward. If the customer explicitly does not want extra quality, then the company can't spend extra on unwanted QA work.

In the end, there is a small niche for quality. But the majority of all products will fall into the quantity bin. Bismarck was in the quality niche where you only needed a few, but each one worth just about anything. Same thing today. You may need a huge number of armoured vehicles for it to matter. But one single aircraft carrier can dominate a huge area.

No need to complain about stupid customers or stupid management. If the product happens to be in the quantity niche, customer and management don't have much of a choice but to request a cheap and fast delivery. A competitor may have a high-end solution, but just about survive from the few customers who are ready to pay for the extra quality.

List of 63 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
is it sad or is it wonderful?            01/01/70 00:00      
   Confucious            01/01/70 00:00      
   It's due to loss of rigor in the product development cycle            01/01/70 00:00      
      strawman again.            01/01/70 00:00      
         That's where the problem lies ...            01/01/70 00:00      
      A good aim, but unachievable in practice?            01/01/70 00:00      
         It's a cultural artifact            01/01/70 00:00      
            I can imagine Richard            01/01/70 00:00      
               you haven't answered the question, Jez            01/01/70 00:00      
                  erm, dunno            01/01/70 00:00      
            Second to MArket            01/01/70 00:00      
               They didn't do that during that era ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Bismarck was quite efficient            01/01/70 00:00      
                     It's a poor tradeoff, security against schedule            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Quantity and quality seldom combinable            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Please do get your facts straight, Per            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Don't ignore psychology            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Cannon ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                     The Dora, possibly.            01/01/70 00:00      
            not my quote, but in some article I read ...            01/01/70 00:00      
               Too expensive is the killer, isn't it?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Price is not everything            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Do you think this applies to things you can't see?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        not so often            01/01/70 00:00      
                           That would have no impact at all, but for the sticker            01/01/70 00:00      
      mental hardware guy            01/01/70 00:00      
         Well, you fit my model of a software guy            01/01/70 00:00      
            huh?            01/01/70 00:00      
               Big generation issue            01/01/70 00:00      
                  You're right ... I'm not            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Richard likes his random pseudo facts            01/01/70 00:00      
                        My situation is not like yours, Per            01/01/70 00:00      
                           That's an extraordinary working arrangement, isn't it?            01/01/70 00:00      
                              I don't dislike the land-line phone ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 on phone etc.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    the inventor of the cellphone could have made a fortune            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    This is what's evolved over the decades.            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Sounding quite sad            01/01/70 00:00      
                              I'm not trying to grow a labor pool            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 You are ignoring the value of feedback            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    I'm not at all sure I agree            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Still thinking a developer will reach a magic 100% level            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          The customer is always right            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Definitely a lesson there            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Perhaps, but they're one in a billion.            01/01/70 00:00      
               Not everyone fits in every organization.            01/01/70 00:00      
                  re: not everyone ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Erlacher Logic            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Now when did I say that?            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Apparently you can't pick up on the subtleties ...            01/01/70 00:00      
   well..            01/01/70 00:00      
   In fact            01/01/70 00:00      
   So yeah            01/01/70 00:00      
      That IS a problem, isn't it?            01/01/70 00:00      
   Dice?            01/01/70 00:00      
      used for gambling...            01/01/70 00:00      
      http://www.dice.com            01/01/70 00:00      
   Devolution            01/01/70 00:00      
   2 wrongs make a right?            01/01/70 00:00      
   One of the major problems we have            01/01/70 00:00      
      Design-for-test is the answer            01/01/70 00:00      
         you are quite right Richard            01/01/70 00:00      
            "Proven-Product" syndrome            01/01/70 00:00      

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