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???
08/30/09 14:53
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  08/30/09 14:54

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#168626 - That's where the problem lies ...
Responding to: ???'s previous message
Your perception that every case of "RESET problems" is, in fact, related to RESET has no rigorous basis. Nobody has ever, to my knowledge, made a rigorous connection between the "problem" and its cause, and certainly not to the RESET signal itself. From what I've read, they've found no obvious cause for the perceived problem, and made a circuit change, in the form of inserting a supervisor into the circuit, and the problem, which might well have been RESET related, "went away", or, at least, was somewhat less apparent, and the resulting assumption was the it was RESET-related and repaired.

Has anybody actually said, "I observed this behavior in the RESET (or other) signal(s), which violates required behavior, and, therefore, made the decision to insert a supervisor" ... I don't remember it being so clearly stated.

That's just an example, however. Rigorous testing would force such matter to the surface, and, as a result, the application circuit behavior could be remedied, to the extent that circuit behavior could be forced within specified limits, OR the manufacturer of the MCU or other offending component could be forced to bear the cost of the remedy. If failures aren't tracked to their causes, then there is insufficient rigor in the process. I don't mean to suggest that all insertions of supervisors are the result of random action, but when they're done without rigorous justification they're no better.

The manufacturers haven't helped much. They don't all specify a rise-time for Vcc or a fall time. They don't all specify a rise time and fall time for RESET, nor do they set any limits on duration, beyond the minimum that some provide. Further, they don't specify a maximal start time for their oscillator, when a crystal is attached, so that the oscillator itself could be used as a duration-determining parameter. Hardware design isn't supposed to be a creative art, and it isn't supposed to be based on guesses. Frankly, firmware design isn't supposed to be so either.

I've read the various "explanations" that are clearly a struggle to apply some sort of logic to what is little more than an assumption based on a guess.

Nobody has said, "I observed this <followed by some sequence of signal behaviors and durations that violate manufacturer's spec's and the observed failure rate> and concluded this <followed by some rational set of conclusions> on the basis of which I decided to do this <explaining what was done and how it was intended to remedy the previously described fault(s)> and subsequently observed this <followed by a description of now-properly behaving signals and timings, all within manufacturers' specifications. As a consequence, the failure rate was ...>."

That's terribly pedantic and possibly boring to most people, particularly since it requires lots of time and diligent effort designing and implementing a test procedure, applying those rigorous testing procedures, carefully recording the results, and drawing conclusions based on them and not some conjecture.

I mention this not because I want to reopen an old wound, but because I want to make it clear why there are so many testing and verification positions, relative to the rest of the employment market in electronics development engineering. It's the least glamorous field, seldom acknowledged by those who write the checks, and often understaffed and underequipped. The result is lots of unpaid overtime, and little recognition beyond the "those %$#@! test guys found another problem" comments. It's a job not like driving the carriage, but more like picking up what the horse leaves behind. There are probably fewer openings for carriage drivers than for poop scoopers.

RE




List of 63 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
is it sad or is it wonderful?            01/01/70 00:00      
   Confucious            01/01/70 00:00      
   It's due to loss of rigor in the product development cycle            01/01/70 00:00      
      strawman again.            01/01/70 00:00      
         That's where the problem lies ...            01/01/70 00:00      
      A good aim, but unachievable in practice?            01/01/70 00:00      
         It's a cultural artifact            01/01/70 00:00      
            I can imagine Richard            01/01/70 00:00      
               you haven't answered the question, Jez            01/01/70 00:00      
                  erm, dunno            01/01/70 00:00      
            Second to MArket            01/01/70 00:00      
               They didn't do that during that era ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Bismarck was quite efficient            01/01/70 00:00      
                     It's a poor tradeoff, security against schedule            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Quantity and quality seldom combinable            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Please do get your facts straight, Per            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Don't ignore psychology            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Cannon ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                     The Dora, possibly.            01/01/70 00:00      
            not my quote, but in some article I read ...            01/01/70 00:00      
               Too expensive is the killer, isn't it?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Price is not everything            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Do you think this applies to things you can't see?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        not so often            01/01/70 00:00      
                           That would have no impact at all, but for the sticker            01/01/70 00:00      
      mental hardware guy            01/01/70 00:00      
         Well, you fit my model of a software guy            01/01/70 00:00      
            huh?            01/01/70 00:00      
               Big generation issue            01/01/70 00:00      
                  You're right ... I'm not            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Richard likes his random pseudo facts            01/01/70 00:00      
                        My situation is not like yours, Per            01/01/70 00:00      
                           That's an extraordinary working arrangement, isn't it?            01/01/70 00:00      
                              I don't dislike the land-line phone ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 on phone etc.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    the inventor of the cellphone could have made a fortune            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    This is what's evolved over the decades.            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Sounding quite sad            01/01/70 00:00      
                              I'm not trying to grow a labor pool            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 You are ignoring the value of feedback            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    I'm not at all sure I agree            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Still thinking a developer will reach a magic 100% level            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          The customer is always right            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Definitely a lesson there            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Perhaps, but they're one in a billion.            01/01/70 00:00      
               Not everyone fits in every organization.            01/01/70 00:00      
                  re: not everyone ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Erlacher Logic            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Now when did I say that?            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Apparently you can't pick up on the subtleties ...            01/01/70 00:00      
   well..            01/01/70 00:00      
   In fact            01/01/70 00:00      
   So yeah            01/01/70 00:00      
      That IS a problem, isn't it?            01/01/70 00:00      
   Dice?            01/01/70 00:00      
      used for gambling...            01/01/70 00:00      
      http://www.dice.com            01/01/70 00:00      
   Devolution            01/01/70 00:00      
   2 wrongs make a right?            01/01/70 00:00      
   One of the major problems we have            01/01/70 00:00      
      Design-for-test is the answer            01/01/70 00:00      
         you are quite right Richard            01/01/70 00:00      
            "Proven-Product" syndrome            01/01/70 00:00      

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