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07/16/09 14:32
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 		 #167420 - So don't keep blaming the tools, then!
Responding to: ???'s previous message
For example:
Richard Erlacher said:
On the KEIL tools, Erik. Those produce 2K of binaries for just a few dozen lines of 'C'.
http://www.8052.com/forum/read/167214

It is not the fault of the tools - so don't keep blaming the tools.

You should also not tar all 'C' programmers with the same brush of incompetence.

There are also plenty of examples of badly-written, inelegant, bloated, assembler on this forum - but that doesn't mean that everyone who uses assembler is incompetent...


List of 140 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
"C gives 2K of binary for just a few source lines". Discuss.            01/01/70 00:00      
   What's there to discuss?            01/01/70 00:00      
      Just use macros creatively            01/01/70 00:00      
         It doesn't take a genius ot make things worse            01/01/70 00:00      
   C timing loops...            01/01/70 00:00      
      tsk, tsk...            01/01/70 00:00      
         Hard to make simple "hello world" applications            01/01/70 00:00      
         Yes, I Do            01/01/70 00:00      
   and that's exactly the problem            01/01/70 00:00      
      Generalisations            01/01/70 00:00      
      So stop blaming the tools!            01/01/70 00:00      
         C intentionally designed to support "clever" developers            01/01/70 00:00      
         It's not the tools ... It's the folks who choose them!            01/01/70 00:00      
            So don't keep blaming the tools, then!            01/01/70 00:00      
               I've repeatedly said ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                  where is the qualifier?            01/01/70 00:00      
                     ISTM that some things simply won't work in 'C'            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Of course that is true            01/01/70 00:00      
                        exactly!!!            01/01/70 00:00      
                           The reverse            01/01/70 00:00      
                  But you have also repeatedly said            01/01/70 00:00      
                     another misnomer            01/01/70 00:00      
                        misnomer            01/01/70 00:00      
                           It's not entirely separate ... but it is an eval-issue            01/01/70 00:00      
                     That's a KEIL-specific limitation. it IS a KEIL problem            01/01/70 00:00      
                        It is a universal problem for all software makers            01/01/70 00:00      
                           last I evaluated ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                              4K Limited            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 One coud try SDCC, too            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Yes, this IS a problem for them            01/01/70 00:00      
                              30 days            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 locked tools            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    RE: locked tools            01/01/70 00:00      
      And ????            01/01/70 00:00      
         Do they need to use hammers for a few year before they can u            01/01/70 00:00      
            Good Idea vs The Real World            01/01/70 00:00      
               In the real world...            01/01/70 00:00      
                  get job in airline.            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Read the mail trail!            01/01/70 00:00      
      re: .. and that's exactly the problem            01/01/70 00:00      
         Does it work ?            01/01/70 00:00      
            there is another reason            01/01/70 00:00      
               little bits of asm            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Not just fast            01/01/70 00:00      
            If you were the manager ...            01/01/70 00:00      
               What's the collective noun for False Assumptions?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Going with that            01/01/70 00:00      
                     It's a tradeoff ... Isn't it?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        More generalisations            01/01/70 00:00      
         It's already been "rolled"            01/01/70 00:00      
            If that was Only True            01/01/70 00:00      
         Not so fast ...            01/01/70 00:00      
            preaching to the choir            01/01/70 00:00      
            that whooshing sound ..            01/01/70 00:00      
            Off on the wrong track again...            01/01/70 00:00      
               Who cares which library?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Talking out of both sides of the mouth            01/01/70 00:00      
                     I just come to think of it and ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                     You've got to pay closer attention, Erik!            01/01/70 00:00      
                        the pot calling the kettle black.            01/01/70 00:00      
      In the real world            01/01/70 00:00      
         So, it's your position that cost doesn't matter?            01/01/70 00:00      
            Complexity - not size - affects development time/cost            01/01/70 00:00      
            .            01/01/70 00:00      
   Getting the Least Out of Your C Compiler            01/01/70 00:00      
      An excellent article            01/01/70 00:00      
   It is Programmers Decision            01/01/70 00:00      
      Not so trivial to decide            01/01/70 00:00      
         The problem isn't with 'C' vs ASM ...            01/01/70 00:00      
            How many 'C'-coders would be willing?            01/01/70 00:00      
               Not the worst examples, but the preponderance, Andy            01/01/70 00:00      
            Much use of fixed-point in C code            01/01/70 00:00      
               It's not what they're taught to consider            01/01/70 00:00      
                  I don't know about everyone else            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Now wait a minute ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Lots of people can't program...            01/01/70 00:00      
                           What are you advocating, Per?            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Oh, Come On Now...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 I have to admit ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    TTM and product lifetime            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       That's very true ... sadly ... but ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 if you really did do this you would come away a convert            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    C++ and 8051 are not a really good match            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       In general            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       C++            01/01/70 00:00      
                              C++            01/01/70 00:00      
                              oh, how 'crappy' they would be            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Don't be so sure ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    irrelevant to C or asm,            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Nobody has questioned your competence            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          you missed the point            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Don't you think design style has something to with that?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                you must be off your rocker            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Don't confuse the tool with the user            01/01/70 00:00      
                  What evidence?            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Maybe not so ridiculous ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                        A + B != C            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Fine, but what are you advocating?            01/01/70 00:00      
                              ass-u-me            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 There are things they can do ... but should they?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    If you want 8051 user, push for efficient 8051 developers            01/01/70 00:00      
                     few to none            01/01/70 00:00      
                  this has NOTHING o do with C            01/01/70 00:00      
                     I don't think so much PC either - just beginner accidents            01/01/70 00:00      
                        That may be one of the reasons we disagree ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Not a short-story            01/01/70 00:00      
                              which reminds me            01/01/70 00:00      
                           It is worth exploring C properly            01/01/70 00:00      
                              One has to be prepared.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 You can't assume that just because it's ASM, it's messy            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 So your experience is >20 years out of date?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Not exactly            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Just try some modern tools.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    It's not quite like that ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Project management            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          I have to make a distinction            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             non-sequitur            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Hardly!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Out of interest            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                My bad! Sorry!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Negative reset too            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Yes, there are a few.            01/01/70 00:00      
                              thoughts on this ...            01/01/70 00:00      
   Real Programmers don't write assembler            01/01/70 00:00      
      Ouch            01/01/70 00:00      
      What, hexadecimal?!            01/01/70 00:00      
         Hex            01/01/70 00:00      
            That's how a lot of us started out ...            01/01/70 00:00      
               And then life stood still            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Is it 23 May 2005 already?            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Not exactly            01/01/70 00:00      
                         8kB of object code            01/01/70 00:00      
                           If you'd had the experience ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                              You can use a monitor or ICE or whatever            01/01/70 00:00      
                              nostalgia is a great thing thing            01/01/70 00:00      
   C gives 2k....            01/01/70 00:00      
      Intel APP Builder            01/01/70 00:00      
         Intel AppBuilder and similar            01/01/70 00:00      
            Going off-topic            01/01/70 00:00      
               The are also MCUs with 1K            01/01/70 00:00      

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