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07/15/09 07:21
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  07/15/09 07:23

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#167295 - "C gives 2K of binary for just a few source lines". Discuss.
Richard Erlacher said:
... the KEIL tools [and, by implication, 'C' tools in general] ... produce 2K of binaries for just a few dozen lines of 'C'.
http://www.8052.com/forum/read/167214

You are always saying that nobody should be allowed to use 'C' without a thorough understanding of the underlying architecture - which is fair enough (although we may disagree on what level constitutes sufficiently "thorough").

But I think we should add another rule: "Nobody should be allowed to make wild statements about any language without a thorough understanding of that language & how it works"

You continually make wild statements like this which show that you have very little understanding of the 'C' language.
Of course an incompetent programmer can abuse the language and generate grossly inflated programs; but that is the fault of the programmer - not the lanuage nor the tools.

For example, here is a simple "blinky" example taken direct from Keil:
/* BLINKY.C - LED Flasher for the Keil MCBx51 Evaluation Board with 80C51 device*/
                  
#include <REG51F.H>

void wait (void)  {                   /* wait function */
  ;                                   /* only to delay for LED flashes */
}

void main (void)  {
  unsigned int i;                     /* Delay var */
  unsigned char j;                    /* LED var */

  while (1) {                         /* Loop forever */
    for (j=0x01; j< 0x80; j<<=1)  {   /* Blink LED 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 */
      P1 = j;                         /* Output to LED Port */
      for (i = 0; i < 10000; i++)  {  /* Delay for 10000 Counts */
       wait ();                       /* call wait function */
      }
    }

    for (j=0x80; j> 0x01; j>>=1)  {   /* Blink LED 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 */
      P1 = j;                         /* Output to LED Port */
      for (i = 0; i < 10000; i++)  {  /* Delay for 10000 Counts */
       wait ();                       /* call wait function */
      }
    }
  }
}

And the result is:
LINK MAP OF MODULE:  BLINKY (BLINKY)


            TYPE    BASE      LENGTH    RELOCATION   SEGMENT NAME
            -----------------------------------------------------

            * * * * * * *   D A T A   M E M O R Y   * * * * * * *
            REG     0000H     0008H     ABSOLUTE     "REG BANK 0"
            IDATA   0008H     0001H     UNIT         ?STACK

            * * * * * * *   C O D E   M E M O R Y   * * * * * * *
            CODE    0000H     0003H     ABSOLUTE     
            CODE    0003H     0042H     UNIT         ?PR?MAIN?BLINKY
            CODE    0045H     000CH     UNIT         ?C_C51STARTUP
            CODE    0051H     0001H     UNIT         ?PR?WAIT?BLINKY

Program Size: data=9.0 xdata=0 code=82
LINK/LOCATE RUN COMPLETE.  0 WARNING(S),  0 ERROR(S)

Nowhere near 2K, is it?!

Conversely, here is a simple "hello, world" example - also taken direct from Keil:
/*------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HELLO.C

Copyright 1995-1999 Keil Software, Inc.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------*/

#include <REG52.H>                /* special function register declarations   */
                                  /* for the intended 8051 derivative         */

#include <stdio.h>                /* prototype declarations for I/O functions */


#ifdef MONITOR51                         /* Debugging with Monitor-51 needs   */
char code reserve [3] _at_ 0x23;         /* space for serial interrupt if     */
#endif                                   /* Stop Exection with Serial Intr.   */
                                         /* is enabled                        */


/*------------------------------------------------
The main C function.  Program execution starts
here after stack initialization.
------------------------------------------------*/
void main (void) {

/*------------------------------------------------
Setup the serial port for 1200 baud at 16MHz.
------------------------------------------------*/
#ifndef MONITOR51
    SCON  = 0x50;		        /* SCON: mode 1, 8-bit UART, enable rcvr      */
    TMOD |= 0x20;               /* TMOD: timer 1, mode 2, 8-bit reload        */
    TH1   = 221;                /* TH1:  reload value for 1200 baud @ 16MHz   */
    TR1   = 1;                  /* TR1:  timer 1 run                          */
    TI    = 1;                  /* TI:   set TI to send first char of UART    */
#endif

/*------------------------------------------------
Note that an embedded program never exits (because
there is no operating system to return to).  It
must loop and execute forever.
------------------------------------------------*/
  while (1) {
    P1 ^= 0x01;     		    /* Toggle P1.0 each time we print */
    printf ("Hello Worldn");   /* Print "Hello World" */
  }
}

And the result is:
LINK MAP OF MODULE:  HELLO (HELLO)


            TYPE    BASE      LENGTH    RELOCATION   SEGMENT NAME
            -----------------------------------------------------

            * * * * * * *   D A T A   M E M O R Y   * * * * * * *
            REG     0000H     0008H     ABSOLUTE     "REG BANK 0"
            DATA    0008H     0014H     UNIT         _DATA_GROUP_
                    001CH     0004H                  *** GAP ***
            BIT     0020H.0   0001H.1   UNIT         _BIT_GROUP_
                    0021H.1   0000H.7                *** GAP ***
            IDATA   0022H     0001H     UNIT         ?STACK

            * * * * * * *   C O D E   M E M O R Y   * * * * * * *
            CODE    0000H     0003H     ABSOLUTE     
            CODE    0003H     035CH     UNIT         ?PR?PRINTF?PRINTF
            CODE    035FH     008EH     UNIT         ?C?LIB_CODE
            CODE    03EDH     0027H     UNIT         ?PR?PUTCHAR?PUTCHAR
            CODE    0414H     001BH     UNIT         ?PR?MAIN?HELLO
            CODE    042FH     000DH     UNIT         ?CO?HELLO
            CODE    043CH     000CH     UNIT         ?C_C51STARTUP

Program Size: data=30.1 xdata=0 code=1096
LINK/LOCATE RUN COMPLETE.  0 WARNING(S),  0 ERROR(S)

Now, of course, that's much closer to 2K - but why?

Obviously, because the programmer has chosen to use printf - which is an extremely powerful and versatile library function.
But, of course, this power & versatility doesn't come for free: Just the description of printf in the Keil manuals runs to over 2 pages - so it's actually quite impressive that they manage to cram all that functionality into only 1000 bytes!

If the programmer were concerned about minimising code size, he would not use printf in the first place!

The thing is, of course, having used printf once means that you can use it extensively throughout your program without incurring any further overhead!



List of 140 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
"C gives 2K of binary for just a few source lines". Discuss.            01/01/70 00:00      
   What's there to discuss?            01/01/70 00:00      
      Just use macros creatively            01/01/70 00:00      
         It doesn't take a genius ot make things worse            01/01/70 00:00      
   C timing loops...            01/01/70 00:00      
      tsk, tsk...            01/01/70 00:00      
         Hard to make simple "hello world" applications            01/01/70 00:00      
         Yes, I Do            01/01/70 00:00      
   and that's exactly the problem            01/01/70 00:00      
      Generalisations            01/01/70 00:00      
      So stop blaming the tools!            01/01/70 00:00      
         C intentionally designed to support "clever" developers            01/01/70 00:00      
         It's not the tools ... It's the folks who choose them!            01/01/70 00:00      
            So don't keep blaming the tools, then!            01/01/70 00:00      
               I've repeatedly said ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                  where is the qualifier?            01/01/70 00:00      
                     ISTM that some things simply won't work in 'C'            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Of course that is true            01/01/70 00:00      
                        exactly!!!            01/01/70 00:00      
                           The reverse            01/01/70 00:00      
                  But you have also repeatedly said            01/01/70 00:00      
                     another misnomer            01/01/70 00:00      
                        misnomer            01/01/70 00:00      
                           It's not entirely separate ... but it is an eval-issue            01/01/70 00:00      
                     That's a KEIL-specific limitation. it IS a KEIL problem            01/01/70 00:00      
                        It is a universal problem for all software makers            01/01/70 00:00      
                           last I evaluated ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                              4K Limited            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 One coud try SDCC, too            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Yes, this IS a problem for them            01/01/70 00:00      
                              30 days            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 locked tools            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    RE: locked tools            01/01/70 00:00      
      And ????            01/01/70 00:00      
         Do they need to use hammers for a few year before they can u            01/01/70 00:00      
            Good Idea vs The Real World            01/01/70 00:00      
               In the real world...            01/01/70 00:00      
                  get job in airline.            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Read the mail trail!            01/01/70 00:00      
      re: .. and that's exactly the problem            01/01/70 00:00      
         Does it work ?            01/01/70 00:00      
            there is another reason            01/01/70 00:00      
               little bits of asm            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Not just fast            01/01/70 00:00      
            If you were the manager ...            01/01/70 00:00      
               What's the collective noun for False Assumptions?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Going with that            01/01/70 00:00      
                     It's a tradeoff ... Isn't it?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        More generalisations            01/01/70 00:00      
         It's already been "rolled"            01/01/70 00:00      
            If that was Only True            01/01/70 00:00      
         Not so fast ...            01/01/70 00:00      
            preaching to the choir            01/01/70 00:00      
            that whooshing sound ..            01/01/70 00:00      
            Off on the wrong track again...            01/01/70 00:00      
               Who cares which library?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Talking out of both sides of the mouth            01/01/70 00:00      
                     I just come to think of it and ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                     You've got to pay closer attention, Erik!            01/01/70 00:00      
                        the pot calling the kettle black.            01/01/70 00:00      
      In the real world            01/01/70 00:00      
         So, it's your position that cost doesn't matter?            01/01/70 00:00      
            Complexity - not size - affects development time/cost            01/01/70 00:00      
            .            01/01/70 00:00      
   Getting the Least Out of Your C Compiler            01/01/70 00:00      
      An excellent article            01/01/70 00:00      
   It is Programmers Decision            01/01/70 00:00      
      Not so trivial to decide            01/01/70 00:00      
         The problem isn't with 'C' vs ASM ...            01/01/70 00:00      
            How many 'C'-coders would be willing?            01/01/70 00:00      
               Not the worst examples, but the preponderance, Andy            01/01/70 00:00      
            Much use of fixed-point in C code            01/01/70 00:00      
               It's not what they're taught to consider            01/01/70 00:00      
                  I don't know about everyone else            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Now wait a minute ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Lots of people can't program...            01/01/70 00:00      
                           What are you advocating, Per?            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Oh, Come On Now...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 I have to admit ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    TTM and product lifetime            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       That's very true ... sadly ... but ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 if you really did do this you would come away a convert            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    C++ and 8051 are not a really good match            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       In general            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       C++            01/01/70 00:00      
                              C++            01/01/70 00:00      
                              oh, how 'crappy' they would be            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Don't be so sure ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    irrelevant to C or asm,            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Nobody has questioned your competence            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          you missed the point            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Don't you think design style has something to with that?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                you must be off your rocker            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Don't confuse the tool with the user            01/01/70 00:00      
                  What evidence?            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Maybe not so ridiculous ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                        A + B != C            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Fine, but what are you advocating?            01/01/70 00:00      
                              ass-u-me            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 There are things they can do ... but should they?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    If you want 8051 user, push for efficient 8051 developers            01/01/70 00:00      
                     few to none            01/01/70 00:00      
                  this has NOTHING o do with C            01/01/70 00:00      
                     I don't think so much PC either - just beginner accidents            01/01/70 00:00      
                        That may be one of the reasons we disagree ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Not a short-story            01/01/70 00:00      
                              which reminds me            01/01/70 00:00      
                           It is worth exploring C properly            01/01/70 00:00      
                              One has to be prepared.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 You can't assume that just because it's ASM, it's messy            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 So your experience is >20 years out of date?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Not exactly            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Just try some modern tools.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    It's not quite like that ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Project management            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          I have to make a distinction            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             non-sequitur            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Hardly!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Out of interest            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                My bad! Sorry!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Negative reset too            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Yes, there are a few.            01/01/70 00:00      
                              thoughts on this ...            01/01/70 00:00      
   Real Programmers don't write assembler            01/01/70 00:00      
      Ouch            01/01/70 00:00      
      What, hexadecimal?!            01/01/70 00:00      
         Hex            01/01/70 00:00      
            That's how a lot of us started out ...            01/01/70 00:00      
               And then life stood still            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Is it 23 May 2005 already?            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Not exactly            01/01/70 00:00      
                         8kB of object code            01/01/70 00:00      
                           If you'd had the experience ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                              You can use a monitor or ICE or whatever            01/01/70 00:00      
                              nostalgia is a great thing thing            01/01/70 00:00      
   C gives 2k....            01/01/70 00:00      
      Intel APP Builder            01/01/70 00:00      
         Intel AppBuilder and similar            01/01/70 00:00      
            Going off-topic            01/01/70 00:00      
               The are also MCUs with 1K            01/01/70 00:00      

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