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???
03/13/06 13:51
Modified:
  03/13/06 14:00

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#112056 - Answers
Responding to: ???'s previous message
Prahlad said:
1. In your original schematic the 64Hz square wave output from CD4060 is connected like this..

CD4060 --->39k --->47uF

Where as in your layouts that you posted in recent post shows other way ie.
Oscillator --> 47uF ---> 39k

Whats the correct way or it doesn't matter either ways correct?

It doesn't matter, which of the components comes first, when they are connected in series. I have chosen the cap to be first only, to be able to keep the current loop through 47µ cap, 39k and 3k9 resistors minimal.


Prahlad said:
2. You had suggested filtering each and every supply signal using a 100E Resustor 47uF aluminum electrolytic and 100nF. But in your layout there are two resistors. I have accordingly split that 100E into two 47E resistors is it OK?

Please have a look at the schematic:




You will see, that I recommended also a choke to be in series to 100R resistor. The choke, at best a 6-hole-choke, shows an impedance of up to 1000 Ohm in the critical range of frequencies, which improves the filter dampening by a factor of ten!! Only by the help of this choke the noisy ground return currents of the oscillator can be kept minimal. Otherwise they would introduce ground noise in the analog section.


Prahlad said:
3. Is the placement of oscillator section correct or it needs to be moved upwards towards the power input connector? I thought this because moving it upward will reduce the path length of noisy digital section ground returns which flows through analog section while returning to connector. Am i correct?

There's no longer any relevant noisy digital ground return current from oscillator! This because of the power supply filter at CD4060!! Remember Kirchhoff's laws: The same current, which flows through the 100R resistor and the 6-hole-choke flows back via the bridge connecting the digital and analog ground planes. But as the 100R resistor and the 6-hole-choke present a very high impedance for the digital noise, only a very small digital noise current is flowing. Only relevant current that flows through the choke is the DC component of supply current of CD4060! Nearly all the high frequency components of supply current is supplied by the decoupling caps and only about 1/1000 flows back to the analog ground plane. That is how power supply filtering works!

But to obtain optimum results, the ground pin of 100µF decoupling cap must have shortest connection to the bridge connecting the analog and digital ground plane, as I demonstrated this in my example:




Only then, also the clock signal of oscillator running to the analog section is no longer contaminated by high frequency noise!!

You can even furtherly minimize the digital ground return currents flowing across the analog section, by connecting another decoupling cap from supply voltage to ground directly at the bridge, but on analog section. What you get then is a pi-filter configuration, which shows the very best performance.
You can do the same with the clock signal too: Feed the clock signal over the gap via a resistor and have directly at the gap, but on the analog section, a cap connected to ground. Then, also for the clock signal you have this extremely helpful pi-filter configuration.
What ever traverses the gap must be filtered, at best by a pi-filter.

By this technique, which I call the local-grounds-technique, you can nearly totally isolate even the most noisy circuits from the most sensible sections.


Prahlad said:
4. I remember some time back you had suggested that Analog and Digtial ground planes should meet at one and only one point. But in case of layout you posted the two planes are joined at two places ie. top layer as well as bottom layer.

This is joining them at only one place! Especially if you connect the both planes by many vias, which should always be done, when having a ground plane on top and bottom layer. I did not draw them for simplicity, but you should do that yet, distributed over the whole board.

Kai

List of 157 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
Measuring capacitance very precisely.            01/01/70 00:00      
   "I want the best money can buy, but I do            01/01/70 00:00      
      In this specific case I disagree.            01/01/70 00:00      
   Bridge?            01/01/70 00:00      
      Bridge!            01/01/70 00:00      
   AC bridge            01/01/70 00:00      
      Error Sources            01/01/70 00:00      
         Blumlein Bridge            01/01/70 00:00      
            Blumlein Bridre.            01/01/70 00:00      
               Bridge excitation            01/01/70 00:00      
            Blumlein            01/01/70 00:00      
   Let the statistics be your friend...            01/01/70 00:00      
      frequency meter            01/01/70 00:00      
      Product as a Transfer Standard            01/01/70 00:00      
         Distributor of your confidence            01/01/70 00:00      
            Suppliers like that ...            01/01/70 00:00      
               why blame the suppliers            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Not at all            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Hah!            01/01/70 00:00      
      Statistics for reference determination.            01/01/70 00:00      
         You got it!            01/01/70 00:00      
   questions            01/01/70 00:00      
      he wants to select to 0.1% from 1% stock            01/01/70 00:00      
         that is a bad idea            01/01/70 00:00      
            Hmm            01/01/70 00:00      
      That's a good way            01/01/70 00:00      
         posts cross timed            01/01/70 00:00      
            It makes sense to select them            01/01/70 00:00      
      No sorting of Caps.            01/01/70 00:00      
         then, are you not using the wrong approa            01/01/70 00:00      
            Time constant            01/01/70 00:00      
            Re: Eliminate cap sorting            01/01/70 00:00      
               Example            01/01/70 00:00      
               you do not need precision, you need rate            01/01/70 00:00      
         Would it not be easier the other way?            01/01/70 00:00      
            Difficult            01/01/70 00:00      
               Yes Digital Difficult.            01/01/70 00:00      
                  I think the point has been missed again.            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Demo ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Difficult to change now.            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Don't worry            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Re: Dont Worry.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 How to calibrate an integrator?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Re: How to calib. an integratrator.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Answers            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    256Hz too fast.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Integrator and RMS using DSP            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Whats available easily.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             dsPIC30F2010            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                500 kSPS            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   This little PICcy got eaten, the SILabs            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Is that useful?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Planning to use dspic.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Speed ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            But for what purpose?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               MAC            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  it is amazing            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Here is the analysis            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        the content, not the words            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           analysis please            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              since you, just like me, have no idea ab            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 Ah! The Horatio quote version 2!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    again, you focus on words, not content            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       Which is why I asked...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          If what you are saying is that I can not            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          I had to.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             You said it!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              Analog integrator            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       How do you calculate the RMS?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          RMS in detail.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Out of interest.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             wot you want a RMS demo,steve??            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                FIXED point            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   fixed point is almost as bad            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Alternative            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          NCO again            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Would be nice            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Timer2 of 89C52            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   clever            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Oops! Incomplete statement            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Clock feedthrough            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Maxim App note            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               Nice links, thanks!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               AD9832            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            sine vawe            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Re: Alternative.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Will work            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Re: 64Hz Gain 1.126.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Maximum input voltage range            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Re: Max. Input voltage Range.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   You have got it            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      indeed, and            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Is the resistor in gnd really needed.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Negligible with CMOS Opamps            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               Re: Negligible with CMOS Opamps.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Most opamp datasheet do specify            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Input Bias Current            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Impedance matching            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Re: Impedence Matching.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         yess balancing is required and to that..            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          4u7 Cap polarity and type.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Foil caps are needed            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Available Capacitors.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   This one            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      What are these MK equivalents            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         MKT, MKP, MKC, KT, KP, KC,...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Thanks Kai,            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Ground Planes.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Have you had problems?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                RE: Have you had problems.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Keep the oscillator away from output            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Board Layouts.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Recommendations            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Corrected Board            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               I try to draw it for you            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  RE: I try to draw it.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Here it is            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        RE: Corrected Ver 2.0            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           Answers            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              Re: Corrected Ver. 3.0            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 Some hints            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    Re: I am in trouble.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       Sorry!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       Is this schematic correct.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          Corrections            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             Re: Correction.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                Mylars will do            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             Corrected Board and schematics Ver 4.0            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                Why not doing it like this?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                   Re: Corrected boards ver 5.0            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                      Some hints            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                         Corrected board ver: 6.0            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                            Please remove it...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                               Yes removed Gnd plane from mount hole.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                  Looks good now            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                     Does than mean Green signal.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                        Yes            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                           Thanks Kai.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        trying to understand that            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           DC impedance of ground plane            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          bipolar swings how and where?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Here            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                explain a bit please            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Explaination            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Me ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Exactly!!            01/01/70 00:00      
   as requested a demo.....,sort of            01/01/70 00:00      
   simulation results of the demo...sort of            01/01/70 00:00      
      Thanks Jez.            01/01/70 00:00      
   Changing Q7 to Q9.            01/01/70 00:00      
   AD7142/AD7745            01/01/70 00:00      
      Only good for a few pF            01/01/70 00:00      
         My apologies            01/01/70 00:00      
            No need to apologize!            01/01/70 00:00      
         Nice part            01/01/70 00:00      
   Built Precision Sine Wave Generator.            01/01/70 00:00      
      Good luck            01/01/70 00:00      

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