Email: Password: Remember Me | Create Account (Free)

Back to Subject List

Old thread has been locked -- no new posts accepted in this thread
???
02/14/06 02:19
Modified:
  02/14/06 03:07

Read: times


 
Msg Score: +2
 +1 Informative
 +1 Good Answer/Helpful
#109891 - Let the statistics be your friend...
Responding to: ???'s previous message
I want to build a capacitance meter that can measure capacitances of my preicion polypropelene capacitors. The targeted measurement accuracy is 0.1% or better.

This is rather simple if you have a large number of these precision caps, best from many different sources. The idea behind is, that if you have a large number of these caps, then the cap values will follow the Gaussian distribution curve and you can find a reference cap, by a suited methode:

Build the following cirucit:



Choose Ra = 2k2, Rb = 1k8 +1k_cermet_trimmer, C2 = 10nF/foil and take a CMOS555.
Take the best parts you can find, means at least 1% metal film resistors and multi-turn cermet trimmer (best from Burns).

Now assume that you want to measure 47nF FKP2 caps from WIMA, which you can buy with +-1% tolerance. If you insert an ideal cap without manufacturing tolerances, then the above circuit, properly calibrated of course, will deliver a frequency of exactly 4700Hz, representing a capacitance of 47.00nF. Only thing to do is to measure the frequency at output of ICM7555 by a suited frequency meter. Often, multimeters contain such a frequency meter.

How to calibrate this circuit?
Assume you have a large number of these caps. Then measure each capacitance with above circuit and notate the reading of frequency meter. It doesn't matter, that the circuit isn't still calibrated. Important is only that you don't change the setting of cermet trimmer during this procedure.
Sort all the caps and notate the readings, so that you can find each of the caps later.
After a while you will hopefully see that all the values differ by up to +-1%.

If you have a very large number, then you can take the average of all the readings. Now, choose one of the caps in your list, which's reading is equal to the taken average. This cap is then your reference cap. Normally, you will have not only one cap which hits the average, but a certain number of them. Put them into a box and handle them carefully. All these caps are reference caps.

Now take one of these reference caps, put it into the circuit (sockets for fast changes prefered) and calibrate the cermet trimmer for a reading of exactly 4700Hz.

If you don't have a very large number of these caps, then you can look for the highest and lowest reading of the list. Taking the average of both will allow you to find the reference cap then. Of course, with this methode you will probably not find the exact reference value, because the number of caps might be too little. So, try to buy a real large number of these caps (from many different sources!), so that the center of the according Gaussian distribution curve will hit the ideal value.

Again, this methode makes only sense if you have a large number of these caps. Also, they must come from many different sources! Don't take caps from the same production lot. These don't differ enough.
With a bit luck you can find a reference cap with an error of less than about +-0.2%. When using a very large number then the error becomes smaller and smaller.

If you start a new measurement, then always take one of your reference caps and calibrate the circuit first. Afterwards you can measure.
Take care, caps show a certain temperature drift. So, don't touch them too long with your fingers. If the measurement lasts longer, then recalibrate the circuit by the help of one of your reference caps (also the ICM7555 shows a temperature drift!).

After some months you will find, that your reference caps which earlier showed same reading tend to differ a bit. This is caused by long term drift, which is up to +-0.3% in two years at 40°C.

Also, your circuit should be well shielded against hum.

Kai

List of 157 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
Measuring capacitance very precisely.            01/01/70 00:00      
   "I want the best money can buy, but I do            01/01/70 00:00      
      In this specific case I disagree.            01/01/70 00:00      
   Bridge?            01/01/70 00:00      
      Bridge!            01/01/70 00:00      
   AC bridge            01/01/70 00:00      
      Error Sources            01/01/70 00:00      
         Blumlein Bridge            01/01/70 00:00      
            Blumlein Bridre.            01/01/70 00:00      
               Bridge excitation            01/01/70 00:00      
            Blumlein            01/01/70 00:00      
   Let the statistics be your friend...            01/01/70 00:00      
      frequency meter            01/01/70 00:00      
      Product as a Transfer Standard            01/01/70 00:00      
         Distributor of your confidence            01/01/70 00:00      
            Suppliers like that ...            01/01/70 00:00      
               why blame the suppliers            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Not at all            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Hah!            01/01/70 00:00      
      Statistics for reference determination.            01/01/70 00:00      
         You got it!            01/01/70 00:00      
   questions            01/01/70 00:00      
      he wants to select to 0.1% from 1% stock            01/01/70 00:00      
         that is a bad idea            01/01/70 00:00      
            Hmm            01/01/70 00:00      
      That's a good way            01/01/70 00:00      
         posts cross timed            01/01/70 00:00      
            It makes sense to select them            01/01/70 00:00      
      No sorting of Caps.            01/01/70 00:00      
         then, are you not using the wrong approa            01/01/70 00:00      
            Time constant            01/01/70 00:00      
            Re: Eliminate cap sorting            01/01/70 00:00      
               Example            01/01/70 00:00      
               you do not need precision, you need rate            01/01/70 00:00      
         Would it not be easier the other way?            01/01/70 00:00      
            Difficult            01/01/70 00:00      
               Yes Digital Difficult.            01/01/70 00:00      
                  I think the point has been missed again.            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Demo ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Difficult to change now.            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Don't worry            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Re: Dont Worry.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 How to calibrate an integrator?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Re: How to calib. an integratrator.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Answers            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    256Hz too fast.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Integrator and RMS using DSP            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Whats available easily.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             dsPIC30F2010            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                500 kSPS            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   This little PICcy got eaten, the SILabs            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Is that useful?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Planning to use dspic.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Speed ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            But for what purpose?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               MAC            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  it is amazing            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Here is the analysis            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        the content, not the words            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           analysis please            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              since you, just like me, have no idea ab            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 Ah! The Horatio quote version 2!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    again, you focus on words, not content            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       Which is why I asked...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          If what you are saying is that I can not            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          I had to.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             You said it!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              Analog integrator            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       How do you calculate the RMS?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          RMS in detail.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Out of interest.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             wot you want a RMS demo,steve??            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                FIXED point            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   fixed point is almost as bad            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Alternative            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          NCO again            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Would be nice            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Timer2 of 89C52            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   clever            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Oops! Incomplete statement            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Clock feedthrough            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Maxim App note            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               Nice links, thanks!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               AD9832            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            sine vawe            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Re: Alternative.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Will work            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Re: 64Hz Gain 1.126.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Maximum input voltage range            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Re: Max. Input voltage Range.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   You have got it            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      indeed, and            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Is the resistor in gnd really needed.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Negligible with CMOS Opamps            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               Re: Negligible with CMOS Opamps.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Most opamp datasheet do specify            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Input Bias Current            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Impedance matching            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Re: Impedence Matching.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         yess balancing is required and to that..            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          4u7 Cap polarity and type.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Foil caps are needed            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Available Capacitors.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   This one            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      What are these MK equivalents            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         MKT, MKP, MKC, KT, KP, KC,...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Thanks Kai,            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Ground Planes.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Have you had problems?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                RE: Have you had problems.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Keep the oscillator away from output            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Board Layouts.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Recommendations            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Corrected Board            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               I try to draw it for you            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  RE: I try to draw it.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Here it is            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        RE: Corrected Ver 2.0            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           Answers            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              Re: Corrected Ver. 3.0            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 Some hints            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    Re: I am in trouble.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       Sorry!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       Is this schematic correct.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          Corrections            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             Re: Correction.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                Mylars will do            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             Corrected Board and schematics Ver 4.0            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                Why not doing it like this?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                   Re: Corrected boards ver 5.0            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                      Some hints            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                         Corrected board ver: 6.0            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                            Please remove it...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                               Yes removed Gnd plane from mount hole.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                  Looks good now            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                     Does than mean Green signal.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                        Yes            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                           Thanks Kai.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        trying to understand that            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           DC impedance of ground plane            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          bipolar swings how and where?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Here            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                explain a bit please            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Explaination            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Me ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Exactly!!            01/01/70 00:00      
   as requested a demo.....,sort of            01/01/70 00:00      
   simulation results of the demo...sort of            01/01/70 00:00      
      Thanks Jez.            01/01/70 00:00      
   Changing Q7 to Q9.            01/01/70 00:00      
   AD7142/AD7745            01/01/70 00:00      
      Only good for a few pF            01/01/70 00:00      
         My apologies            01/01/70 00:00      
            No need to apologize!            01/01/70 00:00      
         Nice part            01/01/70 00:00      
   Built Precision Sine Wave Generator.            01/01/70 00:00      
      Good luck            01/01/70 00:00      

Back to Subject List