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???
02/25/06 03:00
Modified:
  02/25/06 03:17

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#110740 - Impedance matching
Responding to: ???'s previous message
Prahlad said:
Why are these resistor not required with CMOS OpAmps can you please give some more information on this.

Assume you have a LM324. This OPamp contains bipolar transistors at inputs. To work properly an input bias current of about 45nA is flowing out of each input, remember that input transistors are PNP. This current is the base current of PNP, which must flow to make the OPamp to work properly.
As the LM324 has (almost) identical transistors at each input (non-inverting and inverting), like most of all OPamps available, out of both inputs a current of about 45nA is flowing. The two currents are nearly identical, but can differ by about +-5nA. The difference of both currents is called input offset current.

If you have now high ohmic resistors at inputs, the input bias current will cause relevant voltage drops, but their effect at output will cancel, if you keep them identical. This can be done by chosing the resistors in such a way, that each input bias current sees the same effective ohmic resistance from according input to ground or virtual ground. Then only the difference of input bias currents, the input offset current leads to an error. This error has the same effect like the original input offset voltage and so, it must be kept low.

An example:
LM324 has at inverting input a resistance of 100kOhm to ground, non-inverting input is grounded directly (zero impedance). Then, input bias current causes a voltage drop of 45nA*100kOhm = 4.5mV. This voltage drop has the same effect as the original input offset voltage. Remarkably is, that original input offset voltage of LM324 is only 2mV typically. So, the too high resistance at inverting input heavily increases offset voltage of OPamp.
But if you have also at non-inverting input a 100kOhm resistance to ground, then only the input offset current of 5nA must be taken into consideration: The additional offset voltage is less than 5nA*100kOhm = 0.5mV!

It's clear, that this cancelling methode is only efficient, if input bias current of an OPamp is rather high. If it's low, like with JFET-OPamps or CMOS-OPamps, then the impedance matching is not required.

An example:
Input bias current of LF356, which is an JFET-OPamp, is only 30pA typically. Voltage drop across above 100kOhm resistance is only 3µV, which is 1000 times smaller than the original input offset voltage of LF356. So, there's no advantage at all to do this impedance matching.


Prahlad said:
How do I know an OpAmp is CMOS or not for TLC2274 Texas calls it LinCMOS type [ Linear CMOS ] so its clear what about other OpAmps.

If nothing special is told in datasheet, then it's a bipolar chip, all internal transistors are bipolar, like the LM741, LM324, NE5534, etc.
If it's not a plain bipolar chip then it's told in datasheet.

Let's have some examples:

1. LF356, TL084, TL052, etc: OPamp with JFET inputs. The input transistors are FET, concretely spoken JFET (junction FET, gate and source form a reverse polarized pn-junction). All other transistors are bipolar. Sometimes also some other internal circuitry is made of JFETs.

2. CA3140: BiMOS-OPamp with CMOS-transistor inputs and bipolar transistor output. Input transistors and some other internal circuitry are made of CMOS transistors (Complementary Metal Oxid Semiconductor, gate and source are isolated by a highly insulating silicon-oxid layer). All other transistors are bipolar. The OPamp is called a BiMOS-OPamp, because of the mix of bipolar and CMOS transistors.

3. CA3130: BiMOS-OPamp with CMOS-transistor inputs and CMOS-transistor output. Some other additional circuitry is also made of CMOS-transistors. All other transistors are bipolar.

4. TLC274, TLC2274, etc: LinCMOS-OPamp, all internal transistors are CMOS.

And then there are also DiFET, BiFET, CBFET, bipolar/JFET, etc., etc.

Kai

List of 157 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
Measuring capacitance very precisely.            01/01/70 00:00      
   "I want the best money can buy, but I do            01/01/70 00:00      
      In this specific case I disagree.            01/01/70 00:00      
   Bridge?            01/01/70 00:00      
      Bridge!            01/01/70 00:00      
   AC bridge            01/01/70 00:00      
      Error Sources            01/01/70 00:00      
         Blumlein Bridge            01/01/70 00:00      
            Blumlein Bridre.            01/01/70 00:00      
               Bridge excitation            01/01/70 00:00      
            Blumlein            01/01/70 00:00      
   Let the statistics be your friend...            01/01/70 00:00      
      frequency meter            01/01/70 00:00      
      Product as a Transfer Standard            01/01/70 00:00      
         Distributor of your confidence            01/01/70 00:00      
            Suppliers like that ...            01/01/70 00:00      
               why blame the suppliers            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Not at all            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Hah!            01/01/70 00:00      
      Statistics for reference determination.            01/01/70 00:00      
         You got it!            01/01/70 00:00      
   questions            01/01/70 00:00      
      he wants to select to 0.1% from 1% stock            01/01/70 00:00      
         that is a bad idea            01/01/70 00:00      
            Hmm            01/01/70 00:00      
      That's a good way            01/01/70 00:00      
         posts cross timed            01/01/70 00:00      
            It makes sense to select them            01/01/70 00:00      
      No sorting of Caps.            01/01/70 00:00      
         then, are you not using the wrong approa            01/01/70 00:00      
            Time constant            01/01/70 00:00      
            Re: Eliminate cap sorting            01/01/70 00:00      
               Example            01/01/70 00:00      
               you do not need precision, you need rate            01/01/70 00:00      
         Would it not be easier the other way?            01/01/70 00:00      
            Difficult            01/01/70 00:00      
               Yes Digital Difficult.            01/01/70 00:00      
                  I think the point has been missed again.            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Demo ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Difficult to change now.            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Don't worry            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Re: Dont Worry.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 How to calibrate an integrator?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Re: How to calib. an integratrator.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Answers            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    256Hz too fast.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Integrator and RMS using DSP            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Whats available easily.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             dsPIC30F2010            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                500 kSPS            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   This little PICcy got eaten, the SILabs            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Is that useful?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Planning to use dspic.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Speed ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            But for what purpose?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               MAC            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  it is amazing            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Here is the analysis            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        the content, not the words            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           analysis please            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              since you, just like me, have no idea ab            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 Ah! The Horatio quote version 2!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    again, you focus on words, not content            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       Which is why I asked...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          If what you are saying is that I can not            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          I had to.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             You said it!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              Analog integrator            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       How do you calculate the RMS?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          RMS in detail.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Out of interest.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             wot you want a RMS demo,steve??            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                FIXED point            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   fixed point is almost as bad            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Alternative            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          NCO again            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Would be nice            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Timer2 of 89C52            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   clever            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Oops! Incomplete statement            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Clock feedthrough            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Maxim App note            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               Nice links, thanks!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               AD9832            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            sine vawe            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Re: Alternative.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Will work            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Re: 64Hz Gain 1.126.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Maximum input voltage range            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Re: Max. Input voltage Range.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   You have got it            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      indeed, and            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Is the resistor in gnd really needed.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Negligible with CMOS Opamps            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               Re: Negligible with CMOS Opamps.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Most opamp datasheet do specify            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Input Bias Current            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Impedance matching            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Re: Impedence Matching.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         yess balancing is required and to that..            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          4u7 Cap polarity and type.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Foil caps are needed            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Available Capacitors.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   This one            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      What are these MK equivalents            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         MKT, MKP, MKC, KT, KP, KC,...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Thanks Kai,            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Ground Planes.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Have you had problems?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                RE: Have you had problems.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Keep the oscillator away from output            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Board Layouts.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Recommendations            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Corrected Board            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               I try to draw it for you            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  RE: I try to draw it.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Here it is            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        RE: Corrected Ver 2.0            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           Answers            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              Re: Corrected Ver. 3.0            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 Some hints            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    Re: I am in trouble.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       Sorry!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       Is this schematic correct.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          Corrections            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             Re: Correction.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                Mylars will do            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             Corrected Board and schematics Ver 4.0            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                Why not doing it like this?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                   Re: Corrected boards ver 5.0            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                      Some hints            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                         Corrected board ver: 6.0            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                            Please remove it...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                               Yes removed Gnd plane from mount hole.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                  Looks good now            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                     Does than mean Green signal.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                        Yes            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                           Thanks Kai.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        trying to understand that            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           DC impedance of ground plane            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          bipolar swings how and where?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Here            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                explain a bit please            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Explaination            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Me ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Exactly!!            01/01/70 00:00      
   as requested a demo.....,sort of            01/01/70 00:00      
   simulation results of the demo...sort of            01/01/70 00:00      
      Thanks Jez.            01/01/70 00:00      
   Changing Q7 to Q9.            01/01/70 00:00      
   AD7142/AD7745            01/01/70 00:00      
      Only good for a few pF            01/01/70 00:00      
         My apologies            01/01/70 00:00      
            No need to apologize!            01/01/70 00:00      
         Nice part            01/01/70 00:00      
   Built Precision Sine Wave Generator.            01/01/70 00:00      
      Good luck            01/01/70 00:00      

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