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02/19/06 20:29
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  02/19/06 20:30

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#110303 - How to calibrate an integrator?
Responding to: ???'s previous message
It can be shown that output signal of an integrator driven by a Rogowski coil is proportional to 1/RC, where R and C are the parts of integrator.
But when giving a sine to input of an integrator, output will be proportional to 1/wRC. So, when wanting to calibrate an integrator by the help of a sine, then w = 2*pi*f, must be known very accurately.

Why not using a quartz stabilized sine generator then, like the following one?





A 32768Hz quartz in combination with CD4060 is used to produce a 256Hz square wave. Amplitude of this square wave is divided by ten by the 39k and 3k9 resistors. 10µF electrolytic removes DC component. The first OPamp of TL084 is part of a third order Butterworth low pass filter yielding a corner frequency of about 260Hz. The reason why here is not used a different order low pass filter is, that the first stage of third order filter is a passive one, allowing to remove the sharp edges of square wave coming from CD4060. An active low pass filter would have problems with the sharp edges. Due to unavoidable imperfections of HF performance of TL084 the edges would appear at output nearly unsuppressed.

After the first two OPamps, which form the third order Butterworth low pass filter an additional fourth order Butterworth low pass filter follows, producing a sine of very low distortion: Only the fundamental of square wave is passed, all the harmonics are suppressed.

At output of the fourth OPamp, a sine with an amplitude of about 2.5V can be observed. The following poti and TL051 allows to adjust amplitude within a range of 0...10V.
Directly at output a 1µF cap can be seen. This cap is needed to remove even the least amount of offset voltage. Prahlads integrator amplifies DC components by a factor of 100. So, any offset voltage from the sine generator would cause huge errors!

Directly at output of sine generator the signal also goes to a peak detector allowing to measure the amplitude of sine fed to input of integrator. Here also a 1µF cap is used to isolate the integrator fom input bias current of first OPamp of TL052A.
Connect the output of peak detector to a good DVM (digital voltage meter) having a high input impedance.

Why a 256Hz sine?
To keep the noise at minimum a 32.768kHz quartz is used. So, the frequency of sine is crooked 'by design'.
As the welding current is phase angle controlled it contains 50Hz and lots of harmonics. So, chosing a frequency in the 100Hz range is a good idea.
256Hz was choosen, because it's a good compromise between signal height at output of integrator and settling time of peak detector. At 256Hz the integrator shows a 'gain' of 1 / 2 * pi * 256 * 47k * 47e-9 = 0.28, so a rather high sine amplitude at input is needed to produce a sufficient high signal at output. This dratsically reduces the influence of offset voltage errors at the peak detector and guarantees very precise results.

To calibrate the integrator do the following:
First, adjust the offset at output of integrator to zero, with grounded input.
Then, connect sine generator output to input of integrator and adjust amplitude to about 10.00V, or whatever you need. Look what the microcontroller outputs and adjust the total gain of signal chain by the help of according gain trimmer to wished value. This procedure will include the whole signal chain, not only the integration cap and reference voltage but also the ADC!

You can also adjust additional offset voltage of signal chain: Adjust the poti to a much much smaller amplitude of sine. Look what the microcontroller outputs and adjust total gain of signal chain by according offset trimmer to wished value. Afterwards repeat the above gain trimmer adjustment.

Kai

List of 157 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
Measuring capacitance very precisely.            01/01/70 00:00      
   "I want the best money can buy, but I do            01/01/70 00:00      
      In this specific case I disagree.            01/01/70 00:00      
   Bridge?            01/01/70 00:00      
      Bridge!            01/01/70 00:00      
   AC bridge            01/01/70 00:00      
      Error Sources            01/01/70 00:00      
         Blumlein Bridge            01/01/70 00:00      
            Blumlein Bridre.            01/01/70 00:00      
               Bridge excitation            01/01/70 00:00      
            Blumlein            01/01/70 00:00      
   Let the statistics be your friend...            01/01/70 00:00      
      frequency meter            01/01/70 00:00      
      Product as a Transfer Standard            01/01/70 00:00      
         Distributor of your confidence            01/01/70 00:00      
            Suppliers like that ...            01/01/70 00:00      
               why blame the suppliers            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Not at all            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Hah!            01/01/70 00:00      
      Statistics for reference determination.            01/01/70 00:00      
         You got it!            01/01/70 00:00      
   questions            01/01/70 00:00      
      he wants to select to 0.1% from 1% stock            01/01/70 00:00      
         that is a bad idea            01/01/70 00:00      
            Hmm            01/01/70 00:00      
      That's a good way            01/01/70 00:00      
         posts cross timed            01/01/70 00:00      
            It makes sense to select them            01/01/70 00:00      
      No sorting of Caps.            01/01/70 00:00      
         then, are you not using the wrong approa            01/01/70 00:00      
            Time constant            01/01/70 00:00      
            Re: Eliminate cap sorting            01/01/70 00:00      
               Example            01/01/70 00:00      
               you do not need precision, you need rate            01/01/70 00:00      
         Would it not be easier the other way?            01/01/70 00:00      
            Difficult            01/01/70 00:00      
               Yes Digital Difficult.            01/01/70 00:00      
                  I think the point has been missed again.            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Demo ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Difficult to change now.            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Don't worry            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Re: Dont Worry.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 How to calibrate an integrator?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Re: How to calib. an integratrator.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Answers            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    256Hz too fast.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Integrator and RMS using DSP            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Whats available easily.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             dsPIC30F2010            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                500 kSPS            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   This little PICcy got eaten, the SILabs            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Is that useful?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Planning to use dspic.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Speed ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            But for what purpose?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               MAC            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  it is amazing            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Here is the analysis            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        the content, not the words            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           analysis please            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              since you, just like me, have no idea ab            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 Ah! The Horatio quote version 2!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    again, you focus on words, not content            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       Which is why I asked...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          If what you are saying is that I can not            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          I had to.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             You said it!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              Analog integrator            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       How do you calculate the RMS?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          RMS in detail.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Out of interest.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             wot you want a RMS demo,steve??            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                FIXED point            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   fixed point is almost as bad            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Alternative            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          NCO again            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Would be nice            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Timer2 of 89C52            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   clever            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Oops! Incomplete statement            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Clock feedthrough            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Maxim App note            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               Nice links, thanks!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               AD9832            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            sine vawe            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Re: Alternative.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Will work            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Re: 64Hz Gain 1.126.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Maximum input voltage range            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Re: Max. Input voltage Range.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   You have got it            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      indeed, and            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Is the resistor in gnd really needed.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Negligible with CMOS Opamps            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               Re: Negligible with CMOS Opamps.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Most opamp datasheet do specify            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Input Bias Current            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Impedance matching            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Re: Impedence Matching.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         yess balancing is required and to that..            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          4u7 Cap polarity and type.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Foil caps are needed            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Available Capacitors.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   This one            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      What are these MK equivalents            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         MKT, MKP, MKC, KT, KP, KC,...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Thanks Kai,            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Ground Planes.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Have you had problems?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                RE: Have you had problems.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Keep the oscillator away from output            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Board Layouts.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Recommendations            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Corrected Board            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               I try to draw it for you            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  RE: I try to draw it.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Here it is            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        RE: Corrected Ver 2.0            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           Answers            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              Re: Corrected Ver. 3.0            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 Some hints            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    Re: I am in trouble.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       Sorry!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       Is this schematic correct.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          Corrections            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             Re: Correction.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                Mylars will do            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             Corrected Board and schematics Ver 4.0            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                Why not doing it like this?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                   Re: Corrected boards ver 5.0            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                      Some hints            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                         Corrected board ver: 6.0            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                            Please remove it...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                               Yes removed Gnd plane from mount hole.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                  Looks good now            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                     Does than mean Green signal.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                        Yes            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                           Thanks Kai.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        trying to understand that            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           DC impedance of ground plane            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          bipolar swings how and where?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Here            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                explain a bit please            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Explaination            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Me ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Exactly!!            01/01/70 00:00      
   as requested a demo.....,sort of            01/01/70 00:00      
   simulation results of the demo...sort of            01/01/70 00:00      
      Thanks Jez.            01/01/70 00:00      
   Changing Q7 to Q9.            01/01/70 00:00      
   AD7142/AD7745            01/01/70 00:00      
      Only good for a few pF            01/01/70 00:00      
         My apologies            01/01/70 00:00      
            No need to apologize!            01/01/70 00:00      
         Nice part            01/01/70 00:00      
   Built Precision Sine Wave Generator.            01/01/70 00:00      
      Good luck            01/01/70 00:00      

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