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???
07/21/09 14:32
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#167660 - Not so ridiculous ...
Responding to: ???'s previous message
Erik Malund said:
I'd refer you to the comments by Steve and Jez, for starters. Clearly they just want to get in, get paid, and get out, and devil take the hindmost. Do you really think, based on what they've written, that they care about an extra $3 in the BOM?
which is the correct procedure if the volume is not huge.
If you can save $3000 in development (and maintenance) cost on 100 units who cares if the BOM is $3 more.

True enough, but what about the 100-unit-per-week instance?


I have a confession here: it took me a good while to learn this.

I can recall a number of cases in which the coders decided they wanted an extra 500% of RAM and 2500% of processing bandwidth (faster, fancier processor).
the discussion here is which of two reasonable choices to make, not whether to go from reasonable to ridiculous.

Again, quite true, but sometimes the initial "guesstimate" as to what's needed is ridiculous.

we didn't have to buy that multi-k-buck compiler.
that is a ridiculous statement. If you spend "multi-k-bucks" ONCE and every time thereafter the productivity of, say, $50/hour personnel is 20% better, it does not take long to recover the cost.

This is where your case and mine differ a great deal. Whenever I use a multi-kBuck tool, I have to ensure that the tool is available to my client after I've gone away. I can't leave him in the situation of having to come back to me just because he wants to make a small change. If I were on someone's payroll and likely to remain so, it would be different, as the development tool cost would really only occur once. If I use the multi-k-Buck tool, every one for whom I provide service has to wind up with it, whether he buys it, or whether I provide it as part of my deliverables.

since they're still shipping hundreds of units per week after two years.
You have a tendency to make your "if you do not do it in assembler, you are an idiot" statements without any "volume qualifier". Were I to do a one off, my sole concern would be development cost, would that require "an extra 500% of RAM and 2500% of processing bandwidth", so what? If you do not get professional satisfaction from TOTAL [run] cost, but only from "the most efficient, compact, fast code" you need to get your professional pride meter adjusted.

Erik



As I've said before, where you sit determines what you see. I guess one component in my HLL vs ASM decision is what it will add to the overall project cost as seen strictly in terms of my involvment. If I have to add the cost of the KEIL tools to my involvement, I am likely to be uncompetitive. Whether I provide that tool set or whether the client has to buy it himself, it's still part of the cost. I certainly can't, in good conscience, perform a firmware task and leave the client with the sources but no tools with which to process them. I also can't say, "I used KEIL, but there's a free SDCC into which you can translate/modify the code so you can rework it as needed in the future." I've found that well-documented ASM is the easiest and least troublesome way to deliver code. The Assembler is normally no-or-low-cost, and there has, in my case, anyway, been little need for after-the-fact fiddling with the code. Generally, follow-on work has been upgrades and enhancements rather than major reworks. That's why adding functions and features has generally required more code space and/or more performance, since MCU, memory volume, and speed were initially sized for the task at hand.

RE



List of 109 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
switchover from 8048 to 8031            01/01/70 00:00      
   P4-P7 whereabouts            01/01/70 00:00      
      This might be a bit trickier than you think ...            01/01/70 00:00      
         interfacing 8243 to uprocessor            01/01/70 00:00      
   Replacing one dinosaur with another?            01/01/70 00:00      
   Maybe you should reconsider the system configuration            01/01/70 00:00      
   8048 -> 8051            01/01/70 00:00      
      if you buy a SILabs kit ...            01/01/70 00:00      
         Beware of 'C'-only systems ...            01/01/70 00:00      
            Pardon??!            01/01/70 00:00      
               I have to believe their tech support guys ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                  The SILabs 'tools' are KEIL            01/01/70 00:00      
                     My point, exactly!            01/01/70 00:00      
                        WHO states that he has to use Keil            01/01/70 00:00      
                           There's probably good reason for that!            01/01/70 00:00      
                              the KEY word            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 You can't evaluate with something that's not complete            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    But they obviously can't give away the complete product            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       migration of 8243 expender            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          what specifically does not work?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Of course not!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Agree with you there!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          On the subject of cars ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             When I feel like it            01/01/70 00:00      
            male cow manure            01/01/70 00:00      
               The tools SiLabs wants you to use ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                  the old familar tune and singing it off key            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Lots of C code to fill 2kB or 4kB            01/01/70 00:00      
                        and how will that help the O/P?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        maybe if the lines are....            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Don't you worry            01/01/70 00:00      
                              It was a kind of joke.            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Illustrated here            01/01/70 00:00      
                  2K of binaries for just a few dozen lines of 'C'            01/01/70 00:00      
                     perhaps, but the O/P didn't say he wants to use 'C'            01/01/70 00:00      
                        You were the one who raised it!            01/01/70 00:00      
                           True enough, but ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                              read the Keil manual            01/01/70 00:00      
                           I don't believe that's the case            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Yes, it was definitely you.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Emulation possible            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    why not emulate 8048 in 8051            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Interesting idea, but ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          how to 8243            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             It could be quite straightforward            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                it could be....            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             how to 8243            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                You really should open a museum!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   You really.....            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       conv51            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Yep ... you're right ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    SiLabs parts            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       It's not at all clear what the problem is            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    I know that you live in the past            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       it's all about the timing ... and the support            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          If it matters, then you shouldn't be asking            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          living in the past, you would not know of ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       quality of support            01/01/70 00:00      
                              "Most coders"            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 do you really have any evidence            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    You clearly haven't though about it!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       which is the correct procedure            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Not so ridiculous ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             when I discuss a, you invariably bring up b            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    assembler code            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       C and assembler are complements            01/01/70 00:00      
                  That's meaningless, Richard            01/01/70 00:00      
                     It's not pointless, Andy            01/01/70 00:00      
                        2kB of code space is quite a lot for evaluation            01/01/70 00:00      
                           One could answer this in a number of ways ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                              I think I know why Richard keeps arguing against C ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 In that case, where's the benefit?            01/01/70 00:00      
      It is unclear...            01/01/70 00:00      
         8048 to 8051 migration            01/01/70 00:00      
            240 i/o pins is an awful lot            01/01/70 00:00      
               Many alternatives            01/01/70 00:00      
               I doubt he's using 240 I/O pins            01/01/70 00:00      
                  240 pins i/o            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Have you considered Programmable Logic?            01/01/70 00:00      
                     What will you do when those i8243's are exhausted?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        old 8243 equipment            01/01/70 00:00      
                           It's entirely up to you            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Max 8 addresses on I2C?            01/01/70 00:00      
                              wouldn't it be wise to start thinking about this right now?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 wouldn't it be wise...            01/01/70 00:00      
                              I2C configuration for 240 I/Os            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 PCA9501            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Decentalized options ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       I would definitely look at multiple controllers            01/01/70 00:00      
                              max 8 adresses...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 SPI often cheap compared to I2C            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    not necessarily true            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       not nessesarily true            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          WHY?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             51 derivative            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                IIC chips            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          cheaper            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             cheaper            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                FAQ            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    shift register            01/01/70 00:00      
                              re: Max 8 I2C addresses            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 two options            01/01/70 00:00      
                           NXP has a line of "bus splitters"            01/01/70 00:00      
            Still unclear [edited]            01/01/70 00:00      
               8048 to 8051 migration            01/01/70 00:00      
                  AT89S8253            01/01/70 00:00      
                  AT89S8253            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Sorry... duplicated post!!            01/01/70 00:00      
            8048 vs 89S52 DIP40 may fit but different pinout            01/01/70 00:00      

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