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???
06/01/08 17:13
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#155354 - wait a minute ...
Responding to: ???'s previous message
In the context of the original question, regarding the power system ...

The watchdog doesn't do much to help if your power system isn't stabile. The on-chip (or off-chip) brownout detection should, however. Clamps, MOV's, and filters are all very useful for protecting the power subsystem from external events. Internal watchdogs aren't. For that reason I favor external ones.

For many years, chips have been equipped with "watchdog" timers for the purpose of restarting the chip if the code goes "off into the tall grass" as it often can do on receiving inputs that are not interpreted correctly, or encountering other unforeseen circumstances, or, for that matter, if the oscillator becomes irregular. Those will/may result in too much time between executions of the code that "kicks the dog" in order to keep him from going to sleep, and allowing the watchdog timeout reset to occur.

Most of the problems that were discussed back when watchdogs were an innovation, were simple failures in the imagination of the programmer, i.e. inadequate processing of possible input combinations, inadequate consideration of the effects of unanticipated sequences of events, etc. Can they do anything today that they couldn't do 20 years ago? I think not!

Expecting a watchdog to remedy problems with defective code, of which the above are certainly examples, is unrealistic. They might help point them out in early trials, but can't really help in full operation.

Expecting a watchdog to solve a problem with a stopped/irregular oscillator is a bit unrealistic, too, isn't it? What makes it work?

What remains, then, that can be dealt with by a watchdog is those ultra-rare events, mainly caused by EMI that cause high-impedance signals to venture into undefined regions, either momentarily, as with shot-noise, or persistently if a device clock is affected.

These effects can be avoided with proper power supply design, proper board layout, proper supply distribution and filtering, and proper shielding. The watchdog really only "comes into his own" when there's a significant cost tradeoff between "doing it right" and using the watchdog to "fix" the undesired result.

The only way in which a reset can resolve a stopped oscillator is to cycle the power, completely, so that it gets the necessary Vcc rise to kick-start it. If the oscillator is stopped, after all, the watchdog is presumably stopped, too. An external analog watchdog such as is provided by the MAX1232 supervisor could potentially deal with this. The DS1231, which is better equipped to process the unregulated input to the system might even be a better choice for control of Vcc. If Vin is "going away" then perhaps the best thing to do is to ensure that Vcc will "go away" too, and perhaps at a time when it can be managed in an orderly way.

Doesn't that approach offer a better path to a "solution" than using a watchdog, at least in this particular environment where power is unreliable? At a minimum, it can be used to prevent the runaway code, or whatever, from hurting anything, which the (infernal) internal watchdog really can not.

RE




List of 48 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
Looking for a 80XX chip with build in Watch Dog            01/01/70 00:00      
   Complex?            01/01/70 00:00      
   they are legio            01/01/70 00:00      
      Rx2, 66x, LPC, 80F ...            01/01/70 00:00      
         you will easily recognize            01/01/70 00:00      
            Ateml            01/01/70 00:00      
               probably            01/01/70 00:00      
   Why is the power unstable?            01/01/70 00:00      
      ANY certificate is NO absolute guarantee...            01/01/70 00:00      
         Have you ever been involved in CE testing?            01/01/70 00:00      
            oh, how many times have that been the case            01/01/70 00:00      
            why do you use WD then?            01/01/70 00:00      
               Recovery            01/01/70 00:00      
                  A quote from "The Firmware Handbook":            01/01/70 00:00      
               the fallacy of 'testing'            01/01/70 00:00      
                  why redesign            01/01/70 00:00      
                     'normal' is where it is to be located            01/01/70 00:00      
                        depends on the circumstances            01/01/70 00:00      
                           reduced            01/01/70 00:00      
               To calm my boss...            01/01/70 00:00      
                  why would I not know how it works?            01/01/70 00:00      
                     wait a minute ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                        I couldn't agree more...            01/01/70 00:00      
                     I wanted to focus on something different            01/01/70 00:00      
   Good Design vs. Uncontrollable.            01/01/70 00:00      
      I am glad I am not your customer            01/01/70 00:00      
      What you CAN do            01/01/70 00:00      
         and            01/01/70 00:00      
            but it might save the engine...            01/01/70 00:00      
               neither will a watchdog qualify ....            01/01/70 00:00      
                  It was Neil Kurzman...            01/01/70 00:00      
                  watch the dog            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Yes, I agree with you            01/01/70 00:00      
            I know that it is not a good resolution.            01/01/70 00:00      
         I wish I can do that            01/01/70 00:00      
            I think you need another job            01/01/70 00:00      
            Try googling "SEPIC"            01/01/70 00:00      
               one of many            01/01/70 00:00      
                  It's a type, not a brand ...            01/01/70 00:00      
            Try this            01/01/70 00:00      
               I would recommend against it            01/01/70 00:00      
                  If you have had a look at the datasheet...            01/01/70 00:00      
                     you missed a word            01/01/70 00:00      
               I've had mixed results ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Did you test the LM2674 actually?            01/01/70 00:00      
                     I wouldn't call it testing , but ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Are you sure it was the LM2674?            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Well ... as it turns out ...            01/01/70 00:00      

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