??? 03/29/09 00:36 Read: times |
#163944 - Try looking from the other direction Responding to: ???'s previous message |
Kai Klaas said:
Per said:
A yes, why first check if the hardware works before trying to get the scrolling to work? Debugging the software before the hardware really sounds like good advice... Who says that I ever gave this advice?? I gave him a snippet of code to experiment with. Did you forgot the "...of original poster, usually, we should not lay down too many rules, like 'first do this and then do that'" part? Why do you think it was suggested that he "first do this and then do that"? There are things you do someone to do in sequence, not because you like to control their life, but because there are big advantages of doing things in a certain order. When in doubt, you can always ask questions: Why should he do it in this order, instead of assuming that people are trying to be evil and control him. Kai said:
Per said:
No request anywhere to have the poster bow. Just a request to give some feedback about any progress or where he is stuck. If you read that as "have the poster bow", then I hope this is because a language barrier somewhere. You have no right to request anything here, Per! This is a fundamental misunderstanding. Only because you offer help (or your understanding of help), does not mean that you can anything request. I have very much the right to request more information, if I find that there is too little information available to be able to help. Are you suggesting that I should lie and invent random help instead? Or do you think requesters are better helped by just being ignored? Rethink your view of how a forum works. Kay said:
Per said:
I have not intentionally insulted the OP. Do you have any example? Why do you think that I meant you?? It seemed quite likely based on previous posts from you. A number of your posts have been direct reactions to my posts, and a number of your posts have collectively grouped responders to this thread. Maybe that have been unintentional. Kai said:
Per said:
But doesn't "modify" imply some form of work? Copying another ready solution instead doesn't sound like modifying... You never had to make a change of your product to make it fit to another customer?? What do you do, dear Per, if you follow the recommendations given in a datasheet, for instance? Do you profit from other people's work then, namley the writer of this datasheet and the manufacturer of this chip?? Did you read my comment? Did you spend time trying to understand it? What is the difference between modifying a solution and replacing it? When I modify things based on information in datasheets, I take multiple pieces that I have a reasonable level of understanding about, and I merge them into a more complex solution that I have a reasonable level of understanding about. It is only by understanding that I may do these merges - the pieces I merge are not pre-cut jigsaw pieces that will fit if I just turn them the right way. All merges requires adaptions. Either modifying one of the pieces or adding new glue logic in-between. Kai said:
Per said:
Yes, the amount to learn increases with time. But you don't build the fifth floor until you already have the previous floors built. You die if you you just walk around on the fifth floor and there suddenly is a hole all the way down to the basement. But we can of course be helpful and say: "Mind the floor" or "watch the hole". Very flowery. Had you ever contact with a project in your company, that has overchallenged you? How have you finished this project? Sometime, it's needed to build this fifth floor. I'm sorry, if you don't know what I'm talking about. Yes, there are situations where I buy help because of time or complexity constraints. But there has never been situations where I have bought help with school work. Do you think I should have? Kai said:
Per said:
This is NOT about expected returns. Not about getting a golden star somewhere. Not about expecting the OP to bow or say thanks. Expecting gratitude or the OP bows is a delusion you have somehow come up with in your head. It's a retrospection to issues here before you joined this forum. But if it isn't relevant to this thread, then maybe you shouldn't use it as an argument. It is after all a quite rude claim that should only be used if you do have significant proof that it is true. I have to this day never voted on this forum. If something is good, I prefer to post a note why I think it is good. If something is bad, I prefer to motivate why I think it is bad, what I consider a better solution and why I consider it better. Doing it that way allows other people to respond too - the "discussion" you like with forums. If I offer a bad argument, people can catch it and explain why it is bad. This will improve the quality of the thread, and I may at the same time learn something from the responses. If you have spent time answering peoples questions on web forums, mailing lists or similar, you would know the low "thank you" rate there is. It is much too low for it being a motivating factor to help. I would expect most people who do help do it "because they can". I would not at all like a teacher who expected presents and hand-licking. And I would very much despise myself if I found myself expecting that either. That is a reason why I think it quite offensive to see repeated comments about "the OP required to bow" etc. Per said:
Most of this thread is probably more useful for other people than the OP. But that is totally irrelevant. The only thing relevant is that you don't give someone a loaded gun before teaching them basic gun handling and safety practices. Per, this is just wrong! This is forum and not a school. We discuss issues among members. No lessons to newbies! No gun handling and safety practices, but discussion, talk and fun. And you turn this forum into a privat school education by giving lessons and requesting feedback. This is a fundamental misunderstanding! Did you start with a schematic of the control system for a nuclear reactor? It is your view that it is wrong for forum members to post comments about the how and why. But I think you will find that you are quite alone having that view. You may not have noticed it, but these discussions among members are actually lessons. But lessons without a dedicated teacher, and where everyone have a chance to contribute or to learn something. It was a long time since the school was 100% focused on a teacher preaching from the front of the room. A lot of school lessons are in the form of group assignments etc. That is where discussions comes in. But both in the school an on forums, you will normally get more out of a discussion if you are willing to ask questions or suggest solutions. I have already noted several times (and you can find strong comments from me in other threads) that I do not like comments making fun of a beginner. I don't think there are stupid questions. The only think I do think is stupid is to not take the chance and ask questions. Your misunderstanding here is that you think a person can be helped if people on the forum do not step in and ask questions - (your very disliked requesting more information). If you go to a paint shop and asks for paint to your house, you will find that the probability that you get home with the correct paint will depend on how much information you are willing to share with the seller. If you just say "I need paint", the seller will realize that he can't help you with so little input, so he will ask questions - request more information - to try and deduce if you are going to paint a car, a concrete floor, a kitchen roof or untreated wood for your new entrance. The seller would be more or less a criminal if he do not make an attempt to figure out what you really need. But in your case, you think people on this forum are more or less criminals for trying to collect that extra information. Requesting more information is not the same as ordering someone to do something. If I ask "can you help me?" that is a request. You are free to nack that request. If I ask: "What diodes are you using?", the OP is free to ignore that request. But doing so will affect the further help he may get, since no one else will be able to try and find the datasheet for the diodes. An no one else will then be able to help with the selection of a proper resistance value. Deciding to not get help is a right the OP has. But do not be angry with us for asking the questions. You should instead be proud that the questions are asked, which means that there are people on this forum who care enough to want to help. Biting a helping hand is a very effective way to trig hostility. |