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???
03/09/09 23:52
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#163289 - In some cases, perhaps LED's are not the right technology
Responding to: ???'s previous message
Per Westermark said:

Richard Erlacher said:
isn't it my job, as the circuit designer, to provide a driver circuit that can do that?

Which you do by not using a 16-bit or 32-bit driver but settle for a 8-bit driver if you intend to build a multiplexed display capable of use outdoors or in strong light. If the design need only support +30°C ambient temperatures in a shaded environment (shaded from heat and strong light) then you can run the LEDs with reduced current (averaging way below the datasheet limit) which both reduces the heat from the diodes and the heat from the drivers.

I'm not convinced that it matters one bit whether the driver is driving 8, 16, 32, or 128 bits. What matters is how well the designer handles the system requirements and how well he selects suitable components.

Isn't it my job as a circuit designer to specify a LED that can actually meet all the constraints?

It isn't a constraint of the LED that it will give dimmer light if it isn't lit for 100% of the time. With a constant efficiency figure, common natural laws would suggest that for every reduction in the pulse quota, you must compensate with corresponding power increase in the pulses to keep the average power through the LED the same.

Oh, but it is! If you know you have, at most, a 1/32 duty cycle when multiplexing yet can't exceed the maximal power dissipated in the driver when the current through the LED peaks at 1.5x the DC rating, well, you have to find another multiplexing scheme. If you have a registered SIPO register, then it remains static as long as you allow it to do so, and you can then draw current from each of its outputs for a period of time proportional to the rate at which you have to scan in order to meet timing constraints. If you have 16 outputs, there's no reason you can't draw current from each of them in pairs, or quads, if it meets power dissipation limits and provides the necessary brightness at that timing ratio.

But a driver chip that only has to drive one LED with 0.1W for each output will be way cooler than a driver chip that has to handle 8 LED for each output and has to light each LED with 0.8W for 1/8 of the time to make sure that each LED on average gets 0.1W when lit.


So in the end, you as a designer have to think about:
- Required sign intensity.
- LED intensity at max average current.
- Max pulse quota for the LED, to figure out how much extra current you can add (or loss of intensity) if multiplexing
- Max current the driver chip can handle.
- Max power dissipation of the driver chip.
- Available board space for your hot driver chips.
- Max ambient temeprature.
- Max internal heat rise from diodes and driver chips.
- Worst possible convection cooling.
- ...

Yes, you have to consider all of those, which is why you can't limit yourself to one or two multiplexing schemes, nor can you limit yourself only to use highly integrated constant-current drivers.

But since everything is physics, it really is natural laws. The 16- and 32-bit driver chips can not be used in some designs unless you use active cooling or accepts a dim sign. Using heatsink + fan or water cooling are possible choices. But not choices that are likely selected. Finding a 16-bit driver chip in a more than twice-as-large capsule with half the thermal coefficient would keep the status-quo but then you wouldn't get any PCB space by switching from a 8-bit to a 16-bit chip.

True enough, but you CAN gain lots of options by using discrete components to provide the current and use mass sinks, e.g. ULN2803, which are capable of handling considerable currents. As an option, you could use n-channel MOSFET's as low-side drivers to sink your column-current if you mux column by column, or two columns, etc. I've seen several versions of small-package MOSFET pairs or arrays that would be very effective. Moreover, since they're small (SOT-23 size or the like) and have an on-resistance well under 1 ohm, often under 0.1 ohm), they won't be heating up much, even when sinking well over an ampere.

If the LED manufacturers can manage to squeeze out more light from the diodes without increasing their costs (and without dropping the ratio between max pulse and max average current at the same time) then signs can be built that will shine at the required intensity but at lower drive currents.

In the same way, product improvements may allow new drivers to be designed that can work at higher temperatures without the component price going sky-high at the same time.

There is no guarantee that a device for a given application can and will be "cheap", nor can it be guaranteed that such a display can be made "small". If you absolutely have to have a sign that will be readable at 50 meters in direct sunlight, you'll have to spend whatever is necessary, and tolerate otherwise objectionable size, else you'll have to accept compromised performance.

So while this is a question of physics, it is definitely possible that future 16-bit or 32-bit drivers with current form factors can be used in signs capable of working in direct sunlight (surviving heat and having enough intensity to be visible). But we are not there yet, so Erik's note about problems with the bigger drive chips is very relevant.


Sadly, that's probably true in the eyes of most designers, though the parts probably won't fail if used as specified. It's only when one allows violations of electrical, thermal, and other environmental specs that well-designed components will routinely fail.

If the display won't work with DC drive, then attempting to make it work under multiplexing is silly. Given that the sign can be useably operated with DC drive, it's likely that 2:1 multiplexing will work. Whether the anodes are driven in sets of 4 or sets of 256 shouldn't matter, if the LED current the anode drivers provide is constant, and the temperature rise/watt-second is within limits. If you have to have that sign under conditions that won't allow a "normal" design to remain within specificatios for the components you choose, perhaps you need liquid nitrogen cooling, or perhaps you need another approach. Your client, or whoever is going to pay the bill, will have to decide that.

If the ambient lighting is so strong that it must be "on" all the time, it's probably the wrong technology. Traffic signals have shown that LED's can be made to work under most lighting conditions with proper shading, but there are conditions under which, though they operate properly, they aren't very visible.

RE


List of 307 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
Scrolling Message in LED Display with 8051??            01/01/70 00:00      
   2 separate problems            01/01/70 00:00      
   the simple way            01/01/70 00:00      
      didnot get you            01/01/70 00:00      
         Standard circular buffer            01/01/70 00:00      
            Thanks            01/01/70 00:00      
               Flickering in scrolling            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Clip to viewport            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Testing on 8x8 display.            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Write fastest loop and count instructions            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Any other suggestions            01/01/70 00:00      
                              yes and no            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Frankly speaking            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    time, time, time            01/01/70 00:00      
                              You should investigate old-style monochrome video adapters            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 but pretty close            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    not wishing to start a debate ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       pixel rate            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Yes, that's true, but it's irrelevant            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Persistence matters, and algorithm            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                I believe there's a difference in approach here            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Shift registers to drive rows, not columns.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      ...which is why they don'tfit this sort of application            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Think about pulse quota when multiplexing            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Yes, the multiplexing affects ultimate brightness ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               never heard of 2 lines???            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Yes, but most people can only read one at a time            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     16 pix            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        It's news to me ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           Good with forums            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Do you mean a REGISTERED shift register?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Yes            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Absolutely!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         never seen one            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      That's the answer i was looking for...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       one can change the colour on an LED            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       a monochrome display has one LED per pixel            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          It is seldom so simple as one would like            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             I too read 8x8 as pixels/LEDs. However, probelm with scroll            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Please leave that CRT            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   But we area focused            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Chequebook time!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   You haven't told us anything useable!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      The Information            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      The Information            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Mr. amir            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      The Information            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      The Information            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      The Information            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Quoting Andy on this            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            re the rating of "Quoting Andy on this"            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               LOL            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  It was me, Per...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Feedback            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        I agree with you in all points, but...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           I agree, Kai --- in most cases ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              Kick-starting threads do require some form of pushing            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         That will be UGLY            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Not necessarily...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         That is not ALL the information.            01/01/70 00:00      
            Looked at circular buffer yet?            01/01/70 00:00      
   Has anyone looked at Allegro?            01/01/70 00:00      
      A specific chip for the shift-register solution            01/01/70 00:00      
         Think about total power loss            01/01/70 00:00      
            you tell me            01/01/70 00:00      
      the A6833 and similar offerings            01/01/70 00:00      
   Code, problem, information and schematic.            01/01/70 00:00      
      BU4094 is fast enough, but...            01/01/70 00:00      
         look at 74HC595            01/01/70 00:00      
            Yes, and not to forget the 74HC4094...            01/01/70 00:00      
               and 80 resistors            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Mickey Mousing?? Availibility!            01/01/70 00:00      
                     my absolute impression ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Almost total silence            01/01/70 00:00      
                           ??            01/01/70 00:00      
                              How to activate Aamir?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 I don't want to activate Aamir!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Yes, most comments here are free-running without the OP            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Maybe the wrong sorts of questions were asked            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Let's see what the O/P wants to do            01/01/70 00:00      
                           with the amount of effort the OP shows ....            01/01/70 00:00      
                              What you have failed to consider ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 did you read            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Yes, I did!            01/01/70 00:00      
                        And my absolute impression is...            01/01/70 00:00      
                           why should I do that?            01/01/70 00:00      
                              I have to agree            01/01/70 00:00      
                  What does it cost? How many would be needed?            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Exactly!            01/01/70 00:00      
                     ST2221 EQUIVALENT            01/01/70 00:00      
                        It's not widely available in the developing world            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Max power loss at high ambient temperatures            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Interesting point ... but ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 8- or 16-bit drivers for different applications            01/01/70 00:00      
                           because            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Is this a chicken and egg sort of question?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Different chips for different problems            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 no, applea and oranges            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Isn't that a design parameter?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Physics and practical realities            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          In some cases, perhaps LED's are not the right technology            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       and what does all that to do with ....            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          They have to remain within specified limits.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Still missing muxed concept            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                No ... I'm not missing the concept ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   yes you are            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      You're thinking too narrowly, methinks.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         no, you are muddling            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            It's just another way to manage a big sign            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               not so, back at ya            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  PWM or shorter on times.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  There's more than one way to skin a cat            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Start producing signs.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        Those arguments are weak!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           not for those that have an inkling of understanding            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              So ... how fast can you clock 'em?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 if you had read and not muddled....            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    Not Bad ! That IS a lot more reasonable!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       why on earth would you want to do that            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          If a little bit is good, sometimes more is better ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             you might, I wouldn't            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                I can envision such a thing ... but I don't build signs            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                   I feel the need to SHOUT            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                      Time to get back to scrolling            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                         as long as the CC drives one pixel            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                            Don't everyone love a DC-driven sign?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                               In the interest of discussion ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                  get your head out of your ....            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                     consider ALL the alternatives ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                        Inkling?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                           It comes down to why this is being discussed            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                              Where is the progress?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                 Robert Erlacher ??            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                    Oops            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                 Let's leave irrelevant issues out ... for now            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                    Quote examples            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                       No citation needed!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                            ... about that schematic ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                               Still thinking single diode            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                  It doesn't HAVE to be done in a conventional granularity            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                               I do not think so            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        One other thing ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     THAT IS what PWM does            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        For that, you don't need dedicated hardware            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           never said so            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              Give the customer value while making money            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 A lot of intersting issues have been forced to the surface            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    Go for KISS            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             fruit salad            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Not exactly ... I think you're ignoring the point            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   this is where you are confoosed            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      There's nothing confusing about the procedure            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         NO, NO, NO            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Yes, non-mpx is probably easier ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Resistor on varying-current side? Hot, hot, hot            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Please forget CRT            01/01/70 00:00      
      why this complex, why so enamored by darlingtons?            01/01/70 00:00      
         Of course, your Allegro thingis would perfectly fit...            01/01/70 00:00      
            not the transistors, the ULN in the columns            01/01/70 00:00      
      Back to square one. First experiment with fast output            01/01/70 00:00      
      Power is not Sufficient            01/01/70 00:00      
         Semi-correct            01/01/70 00:00      
      Sorry guys            01/01/70 00:00      
   Switch statement            01/01/70 00:00      
      ULN2803 ????            01/01/70 00:00      
         WHY?????            01/01/70 00:00      
         The 2803's OK ... with a current source Anode driver            01/01/70 00:00      
            Yes, unless high cathode currents...            01/01/70 00:00      
               If he's sinking current from, at most, 16 cathodes ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Not 16 at a time. 0 or 1 for column. 0..80 for row            01/01/70 00:00      
                     I got it from the O/P's first post            01/01/70 00:00      
                        But you don't do 80:1            01/01/70 00:00      
                           I couldn't have said it better myself!            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Code hang-ups...            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Watchdog is nice            01/01/70 00:00      
                        not a 'bright' idea            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Yes, muxed displays requires high currents to not be dim            01/01/70 00:00      
            which varies by a factor of 1:80            01/01/70 00:00      
               It's not dirt-simple, but it's not rocket-science, either            01/01/70 00:00      
                  first/second????            01/01/70 00:00      
                  evidently it is            01/01/70 00:00      
                     I just came to think of this quiz            01/01/70 00:00      
   Happy three months            01/01/70 00:00      
      It didnot work for me again.....            01/01/70 00:00      
         are you familiar with Ohms law            01/01/70 00:00      
         Write test-code for driving the diodes            01/01/70 00:00      
         I'm afraid to tell you,...            01/01/70 00:00      
            Don't shift so much            01/01/70 00:00      
               Yes, he must shift byte-wise...            01/01/70 00:00      
                  The alternative...            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Try this, Aamir...            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Thanks Sir.......            01/01/70 00:00      
                        I knew someone would do his work for him!            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Yes, and it was fun!            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Yes, of course ... but they were far too complex            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 I'm really sorry that they were "far too complex"...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    one step at a time            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       All many of these guys want is someone to do their work            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Big-bang            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Lessons learned            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Lessons...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                the difference            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   He learns and learns and learns...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      that would be true            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         That's the point...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            show me one            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Only feedback tells where the correct level is            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Knowledge is still the morst valuable gift            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   You really never had a look at something bigger??            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Read what I write, not what you want me to write            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Sorry, Per, but...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Atleast give OP some time            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               male cow manure            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               This guy is a STUDENT! And probably a lazy one.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Poor...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     It should be a career-ender            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               Ignorance is bliss?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Is this a Social Work forum?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Is this a Social Work forum? - no            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        ethical behaviour            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           Good elbows...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              Some people are just lazy, and think they're entitled.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              Robots has no feelings            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Where do you put the limit?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        Its not the point            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           Prove your point!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              point of disagreement ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 Teflon-avoidance of arguments            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    back to the old one            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 There must be a willingness to do the work!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    a nasty thought            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          by silence the OP has admitted            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             He has admitted??            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                it is a known fact that            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Do you think, that I aggree if I don't reply...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      yes, IF            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                It may not have been in this thread            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Plain bogus...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   School projects always problematic            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      This is a recurring theme            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Regular on Keil too            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Well, too many components            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    I was looking for a product I could buy, not a work-product.            01/01/70 00:00      
      And still stuck on the basics            01/01/70 00:00      
   This one's not too costly!            01/01/70 00:00      
      Nice one            01/01/70 00:00      
   facts            01/01/70 00:00      
   Silence talks...            01/01/70 00:00      
      It's because the due-date of his assignment has passed            01/01/70 00:00      
         No the OP, but the two drive-by-shooters            01/01/70 00:00      
            For Per Westermark            01/01/70 00:00      
            "Drive-by-shooters"? Are you cuckoo??            01/01/70 00:00      
               I think that was the basic problem            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Yes, and as we do not know the state of knowledge...            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Once more you focus on bowing and other nonsense            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Do you feel better now??            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Why?            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Answers...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Try looking from the other direction            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Forum rules...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Constant misunderstandings, or kicking in open doors            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          bow? no, but questions should be answered.            01/01/70 00:00      
                     but we do            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Making mistakes and confusing things...            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Missing help?            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Why do you all the time interfere in...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 When we ask an O/P a question ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    But that's it, Richard!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       You're right, Kai, but not in the way that you might think            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Can't see "not helped"            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    I'm tired, Per...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Weapons down Kai :)            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       we all are            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          we all are -            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             So enumerate the factual errors then            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                You were wrong            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   I wish that someday ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      I wish that someday ... Is that so            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         And your argument was?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Example            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               Just curious            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  No reverse way just wanted to show            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     assisted != having others to do the job            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        From this at least it dosent make            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           Come on, now, Ap Charles ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              Have you read what Aamir wrote?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 Yes, it looks like part of the assignment spec            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    Assignment specs? Hardly...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       I guess we see different things in the quoted post            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          These are good arguments...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             We'll never know for certain            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       switch not the big problem            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          Direct and Indirect calls            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             Size of feet?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                I can see your point            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                   Probably yet another language problem            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                      The O/P has a part to play, as do we of 8052.COM            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                      Yes            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          Oh dear, Per, please...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             In the eye of the beholder            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                Sorry, I didn't want to hurt you!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 again, it is obvious            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Not big-bang solution, but snippet of code!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                I'm not the only one who confuses things...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Yes, language barrier            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Yes, it's true ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                           wrong question            01/01/70 00:00      

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