Email: Password: Remember Me | Create Account (Free)

Back to Subject List

Old thread has been locked -- no new posts accepted in this thread
???
02/26/09 18:23
Read: times


 
#162903 - Feedback
Responding to: ???'s previous message
But the way you teach new things is by use of feedback.

The feedback is what allows the step size (or pace or starting point) to be adjusted to the students level.

A student who do not supply any feedback will either suffer wild oscillations where the level of the answers will fill a huge span and be more and more unrelated to the task. Or the lack of feedback will result in a total stop of suggestions. Or end up with suggestions that are not understood and wont be explained in better detail.

This thread contains a suggestion about a ring buffer, followed by feedback in the form of a question what that is. A description followed and was ended with a "Thanks....I am now easy with it......No more problems" acknowledge. First way later in the thread are there indications that the OP did not understood the circular buffer concept, but at that state there are other issues that needs answering.

The thread sees a question that the text flickers and asks for suggestion how to solve. No feedback if the flicker was with code using a ring buffer or not. No feedback how the LED matrix was connected or how the code tried to decide what to show or how it sent out the data to the matrix. This lack of stimuli to the thread makes it nearly impossible to help.

My suggestion was to clip to viewport, i.e. only worry about the characters that fits the display and not spend CPU time with characters to the left and right. No information if the three characters was processed because the OP wanted to simulate the existence of a 80x8 LED panel or if the change from 1->2 and from 2->3 was when the OP only tried to emit data to a single 8x8 block. That makes it impossible to deduce if the problem is converting from a character to the corresponding bitmap or if the problem is emitting a bitmap to the diodes or both or even something else.

The OP then got the suggestion to write the fastest possible loop that just emits data and figure out how much time that loop will take for each diode. That should tell the OP the absolutely minimum requirements would be for the processor to manage. The response was "Any other suggestions".

So Erik noted that "Any other suggestions" was a bit short and quick rejection and maybe a little motivation should be added why the OP didn't think it meaningful to test how fast it was possible to emit pixels.

Then we where suddenly back to the circular buffer. At this point in thread, it didn't feel meaningful to expand on the circular buffer since a circular buffer is something that is only meaningful to use if you are already able to emit pre-computed data at high speed. Without feedback, we don't know. But we can guess that there is problems already at the output stage. Suggestsions how to improve not possible, since there is no information to work on. The description what the code does or connection information, ... So the thread deadlocks since the suggestion to test the output speed was ignored with the unqualified "Any other suggestions".

Ignoring the circular buffer technique and just converting character maps to a bitmap and then emit the bitmap is ok. I use that technique myself. But the important thing is: How many characters/s can I process when building the bitmap, and how many bits/s can I send out to the LEDs. If both figures are good enough, then there is no problem to continue looking into. But in this case, no single description anywhere in the thread does mention that the OP have spent time figuring out the speed of the two steps. And no information what the code looks like. So without feedback, it is impossible to say if any of the two stages can (or need to) be rewritten to be faster. Improvement comes from feedback. The number of people who will help suggesting improvements also follows from the amount of feedback there is.

In this case, we know that the display is expected to have 80x16 LED, and is expected to scroll (but we do not know if just one line at a time should scroll or if both lines should scroll or if the text should just scroll when too long to fit...) We know that a character is 8x8 (making 10 characters fit at a time) and we know that the maximum message length is 50 characters. And we know that the OP would like to send the code to someone who rewrites it to be fast - which can't even be done since there are so many things we do not know about. We don't even know how the display is electrically connected to the processor. We don't know if it is using shift registers or addressable latches or other logic.

In the end, problems are best solved in small steps. But it takes feedback to identify these steps. And it takes feedback to catch errors when trying to solve these small steps. If you use an OP in an auduio amplifier and then remove the feedback loop, the OP will not be able to do a reasonable job.

People who want help must (!) supply feedback. The quality of the language isn't so important, but the feedback is vital. A person who do not post "I do not understand" will be stuck. A person who asks for new suggestions before responding to previous suggestions will stop getting suggestions.

In this case, every attempted branch in this thread ends up with a: "Branch dead because of lack of feedback".

There is no need (and should not be any need) for people who ask questions on forums to be good at what they are doing. The whole reason for forums is to let people get help from other people who happens to know more about a specific subject. But this requires motivations. Not: "I need xxx", but motivations, "I want to solve xx and thought that if I do xx I would gain the benefit of". And all through the thread, there will be a need for: "The missing information is that I have connected ..." or "But if I do like that, wouldn't I ..." or "Sorry, but now you have lost me completely" or "Can you explain that again in some other way?" ... The quality of the language isn't important since this isn't a language school and most do not have english as their main language. But the requester must still try to formulate descriptions of what they try to do, how they try to do it, why they selected that solution, why/where they need help etc. People who fail this may be very nice people. But they will fail to get the help since it really isn't possible to help without feedback and motivations and descriptions.

I can often select several different methods to get a job done in an acceptable way. But which method should I suggest if someone asks? It is often not meaningful to take the time and enumerate and describe all possible solutions. In the end, I will probably give one suggestion. Based on feedback I may decide that another solution would fit the OP better. Without feedback, I would just switch to another thread.

How to teach children to swim? If I see a boy run into a pool, swim 10 meters under the water and then try to rip the pants of a friend I wouldn't spend too much extra time keeping an eye on him. If I see someone with stiff steps walk towards the stairs and then hold onto the railings with white knuckles, I would make sure I stayed close in case I'm needed. But this is visual feedback. Without live-view, we need textual feedback.

Anyone know how many times I have used the word "feedback" in this post? :)

List of 307 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
Scrolling Message in LED Display with 8051??            01/01/70 00:00      
   2 separate problems            01/01/70 00:00      
   the simple way            01/01/70 00:00      
      didnot get you            01/01/70 00:00      
         Standard circular buffer            01/01/70 00:00      
            Thanks            01/01/70 00:00      
               Flickering in scrolling            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Clip to viewport            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Testing on 8x8 display.            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Write fastest loop and count instructions            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Any other suggestions            01/01/70 00:00      
                              yes and no            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Frankly speaking            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    time, time, time            01/01/70 00:00      
                              You should investigate old-style monochrome video adapters            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 but pretty close            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    not wishing to start a debate ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       pixel rate            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Yes, that's true, but it's irrelevant            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Persistence matters, and algorithm            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                I believe there's a difference in approach here            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Shift registers to drive rows, not columns.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      ...which is why they don'tfit this sort of application            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Think about pulse quota when multiplexing            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Yes, the multiplexing affects ultimate brightness ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               never heard of 2 lines???            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Yes, but most people can only read one at a time            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     16 pix            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        It's news to me ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           Good with forums            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Do you mean a REGISTERED shift register?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Yes            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Absolutely!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         never seen one            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      That's the answer i was looking for...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       one can change the colour on an LED            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       a monochrome display has one LED per pixel            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          It is seldom so simple as one would like            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             I too read 8x8 as pixels/LEDs. However, probelm with scroll            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Please leave that CRT            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   But we area focused            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Chequebook time!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   You haven't told us anything useable!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      The Information            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      The Information            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Mr. amir            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      The Information            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      The Information            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      The Information            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Quoting Andy on this            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            re the rating of "Quoting Andy on this"            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               LOL            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  It was me, Per...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Feedback            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        I agree with you in all points, but...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           I agree, Kai --- in most cases ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              Kick-starting threads do require some form of pushing            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         That will be UGLY            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Not necessarily...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         That is not ALL the information.            01/01/70 00:00      
            Looked at circular buffer yet?            01/01/70 00:00      
   Has anyone looked at Allegro?            01/01/70 00:00      
      A specific chip for the shift-register solution            01/01/70 00:00      
         Think about total power loss            01/01/70 00:00      
            you tell me            01/01/70 00:00      
      the A6833 and similar offerings            01/01/70 00:00      
   Code, problem, information and schematic.            01/01/70 00:00      
      BU4094 is fast enough, but...            01/01/70 00:00      
         look at 74HC595            01/01/70 00:00      
            Yes, and not to forget the 74HC4094...            01/01/70 00:00      
               and 80 resistors            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Mickey Mousing?? Availibility!            01/01/70 00:00      
                     my absolute impression ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Almost total silence            01/01/70 00:00      
                           ??            01/01/70 00:00      
                              How to activate Aamir?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 I don't want to activate Aamir!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Yes, most comments here are free-running without the OP            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Maybe the wrong sorts of questions were asked            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Let's see what the O/P wants to do            01/01/70 00:00      
                           with the amount of effort the OP shows ....            01/01/70 00:00      
                              What you have failed to consider ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 did you read            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Yes, I did!            01/01/70 00:00      
                        And my absolute impression is...            01/01/70 00:00      
                           why should I do that?            01/01/70 00:00      
                              I have to agree            01/01/70 00:00      
                  What does it cost? How many would be needed?            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Exactly!            01/01/70 00:00      
                     ST2221 EQUIVALENT            01/01/70 00:00      
                        It's not widely available in the developing world            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Max power loss at high ambient temperatures            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Interesting point ... but ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 8- or 16-bit drivers for different applications            01/01/70 00:00      
                           because            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Is this a chicken and egg sort of question?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Different chips for different problems            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 no, applea and oranges            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Isn't that a design parameter?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Physics and practical realities            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          In some cases, perhaps LED's are not the right technology            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       and what does all that to do with ....            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          They have to remain within specified limits.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Still missing muxed concept            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                No ... I'm not missing the concept ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   yes you are            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      You're thinking too narrowly, methinks.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         no, you are muddling            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            It's just another way to manage a big sign            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               not so, back at ya            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  PWM or shorter on times.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  There's more than one way to skin a cat            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Start producing signs.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        Those arguments are weak!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           not for those that have an inkling of understanding            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              So ... how fast can you clock 'em?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 if you had read and not muddled....            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    Not Bad ! That IS a lot more reasonable!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       why on earth would you want to do that            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          If a little bit is good, sometimes more is better ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             you might, I wouldn't            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                I can envision such a thing ... but I don't build signs            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                   I feel the need to SHOUT            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                      Time to get back to scrolling            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                         as long as the CC drives one pixel            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                            Don't everyone love a DC-driven sign?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                               In the interest of discussion ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                  get your head out of your ....            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                     consider ALL the alternatives ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                        Inkling?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                           It comes down to why this is being discussed            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                              Where is the progress?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                 Robert Erlacher ??            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                    Oops            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                 Let's leave irrelevant issues out ... for now            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                    Quote examples            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                       No citation needed!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                            ... about that schematic ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                               Still thinking single diode            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                  It doesn't HAVE to be done in a conventional granularity            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                               I do not think so            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        One other thing ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     THAT IS what PWM does            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        For that, you don't need dedicated hardware            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           never said so            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              Give the customer value while making money            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 A lot of intersting issues have been forced to the surface            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    Go for KISS            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             fruit salad            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Not exactly ... I think you're ignoring the point            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   this is where you are confoosed            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      There's nothing confusing about the procedure            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         NO, NO, NO            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Yes, non-mpx is probably easier ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Resistor on varying-current side? Hot, hot, hot            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Please forget CRT            01/01/70 00:00      
      why this complex, why so enamored by darlingtons?            01/01/70 00:00      
         Of course, your Allegro thingis would perfectly fit...            01/01/70 00:00      
            not the transistors, the ULN in the columns            01/01/70 00:00      
      Back to square one. First experiment with fast output            01/01/70 00:00      
      Power is not Sufficient            01/01/70 00:00      
         Semi-correct            01/01/70 00:00      
      Sorry guys            01/01/70 00:00      
   Switch statement            01/01/70 00:00      
      ULN2803 ????            01/01/70 00:00      
         WHY?????            01/01/70 00:00      
         The 2803's OK ... with a current source Anode driver            01/01/70 00:00      
            Yes, unless high cathode currents...            01/01/70 00:00      
               If he's sinking current from, at most, 16 cathodes ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Not 16 at a time. 0 or 1 for column. 0..80 for row            01/01/70 00:00      
                     I got it from the O/P's first post            01/01/70 00:00      
                        But you don't do 80:1            01/01/70 00:00      
                           I couldn't have said it better myself!            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Code hang-ups...            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Watchdog is nice            01/01/70 00:00      
                        not a 'bright' idea            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Yes, muxed displays requires high currents to not be dim            01/01/70 00:00      
            which varies by a factor of 1:80            01/01/70 00:00      
               It's not dirt-simple, but it's not rocket-science, either            01/01/70 00:00      
                  first/second????            01/01/70 00:00      
                  evidently it is            01/01/70 00:00      
                     I just came to think of this quiz            01/01/70 00:00      
   Happy three months            01/01/70 00:00      
      It didnot work for me again.....            01/01/70 00:00      
         are you familiar with Ohms law            01/01/70 00:00      
         Write test-code for driving the diodes            01/01/70 00:00      
         I'm afraid to tell you,...            01/01/70 00:00      
            Don't shift so much            01/01/70 00:00      
               Yes, he must shift byte-wise...            01/01/70 00:00      
                  The alternative...            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Try this, Aamir...            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Thanks Sir.......            01/01/70 00:00      
                        I knew someone would do his work for him!            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Yes, and it was fun!            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Yes, of course ... but they were far too complex            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 I'm really sorry that they were "far too complex"...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    one step at a time            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       All many of these guys want is someone to do their work            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Big-bang            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Lessons learned            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Lessons...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                the difference            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   He learns and learns and learns...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      that would be true            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         That's the point...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            show me one            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Only feedback tells where the correct level is            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Knowledge is still the morst valuable gift            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   You really never had a look at something bigger??            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Read what I write, not what you want me to write            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Sorry, Per, but...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Atleast give OP some time            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               male cow manure            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               This guy is a STUDENT! And probably a lazy one.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Poor...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     It should be a career-ender            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               Ignorance is bliss?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Is this a Social Work forum?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Is this a Social Work forum? - no            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        ethical behaviour            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           Good elbows...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              Some people are just lazy, and think they're entitled.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              Robots has no feelings            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Where do you put the limit?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        Its not the point            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           Prove your point!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              point of disagreement ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 Teflon-avoidance of arguments            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    back to the old one            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 There must be a willingness to do the work!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    a nasty thought            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          by silence the OP has admitted            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             He has admitted??            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                it is a known fact that            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Do you think, that I aggree if I don't reply...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      yes, IF            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                It may not have been in this thread            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Plain bogus...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   School projects always problematic            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      This is a recurring theme            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Regular on Keil too            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Well, too many components            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    I was looking for a product I could buy, not a work-product.            01/01/70 00:00      
      And still stuck on the basics            01/01/70 00:00      
   This one's not too costly!            01/01/70 00:00      
      Nice one            01/01/70 00:00      
   facts            01/01/70 00:00      
   Silence talks...            01/01/70 00:00      
      It's because the due-date of his assignment has passed            01/01/70 00:00      
         No the OP, but the two drive-by-shooters            01/01/70 00:00      
            For Per Westermark            01/01/70 00:00      
            "Drive-by-shooters"? Are you cuckoo??            01/01/70 00:00      
               I think that was the basic problem            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Yes, and as we do not know the state of knowledge...            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Once more you focus on bowing and other nonsense            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Do you feel better now??            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Why?            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Answers...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Try looking from the other direction            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Forum rules...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Constant misunderstandings, or kicking in open doors            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          bow? no, but questions should be answered.            01/01/70 00:00      
                     but we do            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Making mistakes and confusing things...            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Missing help?            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Why do you all the time interfere in...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 When we ask an O/P a question ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    But that's it, Richard!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       You're right, Kai, but not in the way that you might think            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Can't see "not helped"            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    I'm tired, Per...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Weapons down Kai :)            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       we all are            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          we all are -            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             So enumerate the factual errors then            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                You were wrong            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   I wish that someday ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      I wish that someday ... Is that so            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         And your argument was?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Example            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               Just curious            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  No reverse way just wanted to show            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     assisted != having others to do the job            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        From this at least it dosent make            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           Come on, now, Ap Charles ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              Have you read what Aamir wrote?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 Yes, it looks like part of the assignment spec            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    Assignment specs? Hardly...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       I guess we see different things in the quoted post            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          These are good arguments...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             We'll never know for certain            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       switch not the big problem            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          Direct and Indirect calls            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             Size of feet?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                I can see your point            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                   Probably yet another language problem            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                      The O/P has a part to play, as do we of 8052.COM            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                      Yes            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          Oh dear, Per, please...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             In the eye of the beholder            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                Sorry, I didn't want to hurt you!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 again, it is obvious            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Not big-bang solution, but snippet of code!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                I'm not the only one who confuses things...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Yes, language barrier            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Yes, it's true ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                           wrong question            01/01/70 00:00      

Back to Subject List