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???
03/10/09 09:50
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#163293 - Still missing muxed concept
Responding to: ???'s previous message
For big signs, one often sees multiple LED's per pixel. These can, I suppose, be driven simultaneously for additional brightness, or, can be muxed for thermal protection.


In a display where you have several LED/pixel you would normally look at driving them in series to allow a higher voltage and lower current. A big problem with large signs is the very high current. If you have 240x16 LED (a quite ordinary sign) you have almost 4k diodes. If each diode gets an average current of 20mA when the display is at max intensity, then the required current with all LED turned on (remember that the diodes are controlled individually) would be 76.8A. The power to the diodes would be about 150W and if you get 5V from the supply you would have 225W to burn in driver chips and series resistors.

If one LED/dot isn't enough, it wouldn't be too funny to continue and scale this drive current furhter. With four LED/pixel in parallell you would get 300A. If driven in series, you could stay with a similar amount of power loss in the drive electronics and just dimension for four times the voltage to the LEDs - 600W to LEDs and 225W to the driver electronics.

These can, I suppose, be driven simultaneously for additional brightness, or, can be muxed for thermal protection.

You still haven't got the multiplexing. A multiplexed LED shining at only a fraction of the time can still give the same amount of light as a LED that is driven continuously and be 100% fulfilling the datasheet for the LED. The multiplexing is used to reduce the amount of drive electronics - not as a way to reduce the display intensity. It is only if the multiplexing factor passes the quota between max pulse current and max average current supported by the diode that the multiplexing sign will be required to never reach max intensity of the individual diodes.

An anode driver that provides 32 simultaneous outputs can be used in conjunction with a 1-of-4 multiplexing, just as a 4-output driver can.

Correct. But a driver chip with 32 simultaneous outputs will have 8 times more diodes to control, so the power loss in a 32-output driver will be 8 times higher. But the capsule of a 32-output driver will normally not have 8 times lower thermal resistance so there will be harder resistrictions on max current/output - either directly written in the datasheet, or as a result of the allowed Pd.

An Allegro A6277 8-output chip has a max operating temperature of +85°C. The 20-pin SOICW package can handle up to 122mA concurrently on all 8 outputs when designed with a 1V internal voltage drop. The package has 90°C/W and at 50°C will allow 1.2W dissipation. At 75°C max dissipation will be 0.8W. So max drive current/LED is directly affected by the ambient temperature since the capacity of the driver is a linear function that directly follows from the 90°C/W thermal resistance.

Let's switch to the 16-output sibling Allegro A6276. The socket has increased from a 20-pin to a 24-pin SOICW. It has 85°C/W which is slightly better and caused by a 20% larger surface area of the 24-pin package. The datasheet gives max 1.2W at 50°C (same as the 8-output variant) and about 0.85W at 75°C.

As you can see, the total power loss if the 16-output variant is almost identical - but in this case you have twice as many outputs. So if used in an multilexed outdoor sign (and probably just about all multiplexed indoor signs too), you will either have to use only half of the 16-pin outputs (which would be silly) or you will have to reduce the current required from each pin (reduce the LED current) or reduce the voltage drop in the chip (which would affect the ability to regulate the current).

This is a real design constraint. So as a professional developer, you must not recommend people to go for 16-bit or 32-bit driver chips unless (!) they are run at low output currents (such as in a DC-driven display where you need hardly any power at all from each output) or for an indoor display where the ambient temperature will be much lower and the required light intensity from the diodes need not be as strong.

Yes, you can go for big 32-bit shift registers with external buffer chips. But what would be the gain? The whole point of the 16-bit or 32-bit LED drivers is not that you may look at external buffers, but to keep down the surface area needed for the driver. The cheapest possible 8-bit latched shift register with drive capability would be a better alternative to a longer shift regsiter feeding multiple driver chips or a huge number of discrete transistors.

But you have more factors to think about. For the argument, let's take a EL15-21VYC surface-mounted
LED. Probably lousy for a billboard but it should suffice as an example.
Vf 2V
Ifavg 30mA
Ifpeak 160mA (1/10 @ 1kHz)
1206 form factor

In a DC-driven display, you may feed 20mA / output from each output of your Allegro chip (well within spec of the diode that can handle 30mA). Hardly any current at all, so no problem with a 16-output chip.

In a multiplexed dislay, you do not multiplex between the pins of the driver, so a 16-ouput driver do not alternate between 16 LED - on on each output. It always uses all 16 outputs, but multiplexes which of (in this case 8 to 10 LED) the LED connected to each pin that will be lit.

With a 8/1 multiplexing factor, you would then use 8*20 = 160mA instead. This is still within spec of the diode and the power to each diode will be the same as in the DC-driven display. You would not see any difference in display intensity (if we assume everything is linear). But suddenly, this 16-output Allegro will no longer have to source 16*20 = 320mA total current (or 320mW if 1V drop in the driver). Instead, it will have to source 2560mA which is 2.56W at 1V voltage drop. Even with cooling, the chip will be used way outside the datasheet maximas.

Now it should be obvious why a 16-ouput driver chip can not feed a multiplexed display just as well as four 4-output drivers. In this world, the 16-output drivers are not built into packages with half the thermal resistance of their 8-output siblings.

But there are more factors to think about when designing a display. The LED I mentioned is in 1206 form factor. Let's say you have 4mm pitch distance. 16 LED beside each other would consume 64mm in side. A 16x16 panel would be 64x64 = 4096 mm2. Nothing strange there.

A 8/1 multiplexed display would need 2 x 16-ouput chips, but as can be seen from the above, the Allegro A6276 would go up in smoke. The 8-output little brother would manage if you keep track of the ambient temperature. You would then need 4x 8-ouput chips. The outline of the 20pin SOICW is 10.3 x 12.8 mm or 131.8 mm2 so four chips would require 527 mm2. A lot of space left for the pads, traces, capacitors, resistors, ...

Switch to a DC-driven display and you would need eight times as many driver outputs - 16x16 = 256 outputs within your 4096mm2 board area. You would need 32 8-output chips for the 16x16 module. That would add up to 4218 mm2 which is larger than the PCB area for the diodes. If the 16x16 panel is expected to be stackable in height and width, then you would have to build daughter boards if you used the Allegro A6277. Let's go back and look at the 16-output sibling again. You would need 16 x A6276, and the outline of the 24-pin SOICW (excluding solder areas) is 10.3 x 15.4 mm = 158.6mm2 which would accumulate to 2538mm2 for 16 chips.

So as you can see, there is a market for 16-output or 32-output LED drivers. But they are only marginally usable in multiplexed designs. So if you worry about professionalism and proper design, I have to conclude that you should avoid recommending large-output drivers in a thread specifically about multiplexed displays.

But from your previous posts, I kind of think that you have still missed about about the multiplexing. You wrote in another post:
If you have a registered SIPO register, then it remains static as long as you allow it to do so, and you can then draw current from each of its outputs for a period of time proportional to the rate at which you have to scan in order to meet timing constraints.

This indicates that you seem to think a 16-output driver in a multiplexed design will only drive one LED at a time. All 16 outputs will be used to drive one LED each at m times higher current than in a non-multiplexed sign. Then all 16 outputs will be used to drive a second set of 16 LEDs (also at m times higher current than in a non-multiplexed sign). A 16-output SIPO will drive twice as many diodes concurrently as a 8-output SIPO, resulting in twice as much power loss in a package that does not have half the thermal resistance.

If you have 16 outputs, there's no reason you can't draw current from each of them in pairs, or quads, if it meets power dissipation limits and provides the necessary brightness at that timing ratio.

If I can afford to have "extra" outputs in the design, then the design is incorrect. If I have 16 outputs from a driver, then I would use all 16 all the time. Either to control 16 diodes in a DC-driven sign, or maybe 64 diodes in a 4/1 multiplexed sign. But I would never ever start to multiplex which of the outputs from the shift register that gets used. That would just introduce high-current pulses without any gain. The multiplexing is to let few outputs drive many LED, not to let many outputs regularly rest.

The shift register is not (!) usd for the scan lines. It is for the columns so each output may be connected to multiple diodes, but each output will only drive one LED at a time, but possibly at m times higher current than the LED is used with in a DC-driven sign. The other side of the diodes are however connected to row-drive transistors, where each row-drive transistor is responsible for a scan-line. In this case, the row-drive transistor may handle 80 LEDs but for real displays you normally split the display into horisontally stackable modules and let each module contain its own row-drive transistors (just as it contains its own column-drive shift registers/buffers).

I'm not convinced that it matters one bit whether the driver is driving 8, 16, 32, or 128 bits. What matters is how well the designer handles the system requirements and how well he selects suitable components.

Which is why a designer selects drivers with few outputs in multiplexed and/or outdoor signs. It is a direct result of the designer reading the datasheets before designing.

Yes, you have to consider all of those, which is why you can't limit yourself to one or two multiplexing schemes, nor can you limit yourself only to use highly integrated constant-current drivers.

I have never limited myself to constant-current drivers. I did write in another post that shift-register + buffer + resistor or shift-register with buffer + resistor or shift-register with constant-current driver will all work. Some solutions a bit better, and some a bit worse. But the designer must always limit himself to physical properties. One important factor is the amount of board space available for the drivers. Another factor is the amount of power too cool off the driver chips. These are controlling design criteria. A design that doesn't fit in the box or can't do 10+ years in the required operating environment is a failure.

List of 307 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
Scrolling Message in LED Display with 8051??            01/01/70 00:00      
   2 separate problems            01/01/70 00:00      
   the simple way            01/01/70 00:00      
      didnot get you            01/01/70 00:00      
         Standard circular buffer            01/01/70 00:00      
            Thanks            01/01/70 00:00      
               Flickering in scrolling            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Clip to viewport            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Testing on 8x8 display.            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Write fastest loop and count instructions            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Any other suggestions            01/01/70 00:00      
                              yes and no            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Frankly speaking            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    time, time, time            01/01/70 00:00      
                              You should investigate old-style monochrome video adapters            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 but pretty close            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    not wishing to start a debate ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       pixel rate            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Yes, that's true, but it's irrelevant            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Persistence matters, and algorithm            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                I believe there's a difference in approach here            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Shift registers to drive rows, not columns.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      ...which is why they don'tfit this sort of application            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Think about pulse quota when multiplexing            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Yes, the multiplexing affects ultimate brightness ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               never heard of 2 lines???            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Yes, but most people can only read one at a time            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     16 pix            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        It's news to me ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           Good with forums            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Do you mean a REGISTERED shift register?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Yes            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Absolutely!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         never seen one            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      That's the answer i was looking for...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       one can change the colour on an LED            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       a monochrome display has one LED per pixel            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          It is seldom so simple as one would like            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             I too read 8x8 as pixels/LEDs. However, probelm with scroll            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Please leave that CRT            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   But we area focused            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Chequebook time!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   You haven't told us anything useable!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      The Information            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      The Information            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Mr. amir            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      The Information            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      The Information            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      The Information            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Quoting Andy on this            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            re the rating of "Quoting Andy on this"            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               LOL            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  It was me, Per...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Feedback            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        I agree with you in all points, but...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           I agree, Kai --- in most cases ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              Kick-starting threads do require some form of pushing            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         That will be UGLY            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Not necessarily...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         That is not ALL the information.            01/01/70 00:00      
            Looked at circular buffer yet?            01/01/70 00:00      
   Has anyone looked at Allegro?            01/01/70 00:00      
      A specific chip for the shift-register solution            01/01/70 00:00      
         Think about total power loss            01/01/70 00:00      
            you tell me            01/01/70 00:00      
      the A6833 and similar offerings            01/01/70 00:00      
   Code, problem, information and schematic.            01/01/70 00:00      
      BU4094 is fast enough, but...            01/01/70 00:00      
         look at 74HC595            01/01/70 00:00      
            Yes, and not to forget the 74HC4094...            01/01/70 00:00      
               and 80 resistors            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Mickey Mousing?? Availibility!            01/01/70 00:00      
                     my absolute impression ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Almost total silence            01/01/70 00:00      
                           ??            01/01/70 00:00      
                              How to activate Aamir?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 I don't want to activate Aamir!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Yes, most comments here are free-running without the OP            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Maybe the wrong sorts of questions were asked            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Let's see what the O/P wants to do            01/01/70 00:00      
                           with the amount of effort the OP shows ....            01/01/70 00:00      
                              What you have failed to consider ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 did you read            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Yes, I did!            01/01/70 00:00      
                        And my absolute impression is...            01/01/70 00:00      
                           why should I do that?            01/01/70 00:00      
                              I have to agree            01/01/70 00:00      
                  What does it cost? How many would be needed?            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Exactly!            01/01/70 00:00      
                     ST2221 EQUIVALENT            01/01/70 00:00      
                        It's not widely available in the developing world            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Max power loss at high ambient temperatures            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Interesting point ... but ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 8- or 16-bit drivers for different applications            01/01/70 00:00      
                           because            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Is this a chicken and egg sort of question?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Different chips for different problems            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 no, applea and oranges            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Isn't that a design parameter?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Physics and practical realities            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          In some cases, perhaps LED's are not the right technology            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       and what does all that to do with ....            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          They have to remain within specified limits.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Still missing muxed concept            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                No ... I'm not missing the concept ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   yes you are            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      You're thinking too narrowly, methinks.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         no, you are muddling            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            It's just another way to manage a big sign            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               not so, back at ya            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  PWM or shorter on times.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  There's more than one way to skin a cat            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Start producing signs.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        Those arguments are weak!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           not for those that have an inkling of understanding            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              So ... how fast can you clock 'em?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 if you had read and not muddled....            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    Not Bad ! That IS a lot more reasonable!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       why on earth would you want to do that            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          If a little bit is good, sometimes more is better ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             you might, I wouldn't            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                I can envision such a thing ... but I don't build signs            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                   I feel the need to SHOUT            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                      Time to get back to scrolling            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                         as long as the CC drives one pixel            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                            Don't everyone love a DC-driven sign?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                               In the interest of discussion ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                  get your head out of your ....            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                     consider ALL the alternatives ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                        Inkling?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                           It comes down to why this is being discussed            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                              Where is the progress?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                 Robert Erlacher ??            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                    Oops            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                 Let's leave irrelevant issues out ... for now            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                    Quote examples            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                                       No citation needed!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                            ... about that schematic ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                               Still thinking single diode            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                  It doesn't HAVE to be done in a conventional granularity            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                               I do not think so            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        One other thing ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     THAT IS what PWM does            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        For that, you don't need dedicated hardware            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           never said so            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              Give the customer value while making money            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 A lot of intersting issues have been forced to the surface            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    Go for KISS            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             fruit salad            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Not exactly ... I think you're ignoring the point            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   this is where you are confoosed            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      There's nothing confusing about the procedure            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         NO, NO, NO            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Yes, non-mpx is probably easier ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Resistor on varying-current side? Hot, hot, hot            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Please forget CRT            01/01/70 00:00      
      why this complex, why so enamored by darlingtons?            01/01/70 00:00      
         Of course, your Allegro thingis would perfectly fit...            01/01/70 00:00      
            not the transistors, the ULN in the columns            01/01/70 00:00      
      Back to square one. First experiment with fast output            01/01/70 00:00      
      Power is not Sufficient            01/01/70 00:00      
         Semi-correct            01/01/70 00:00      
      Sorry guys            01/01/70 00:00      
   Switch statement            01/01/70 00:00      
      ULN2803 ????            01/01/70 00:00      
         WHY?????            01/01/70 00:00      
         The 2803's OK ... with a current source Anode driver            01/01/70 00:00      
            Yes, unless high cathode currents...            01/01/70 00:00      
               If he's sinking current from, at most, 16 cathodes ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Not 16 at a time. 0 or 1 for column. 0..80 for row            01/01/70 00:00      
                     I got it from the O/P's first post            01/01/70 00:00      
                        But you don't do 80:1            01/01/70 00:00      
                           I couldn't have said it better myself!            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Code hang-ups...            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Watchdog is nice            01/01/70 00:00      
                        not a 'bright' idea            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Yes, muxed displays requires high currents to not be dim            01/01/70 00:00      
            which varies by a factor of 1:80            01/01/70 00:00      
               It's not dirt-simple, but it's not rocket-science, either            01/01/70 00:00      
                  first/second????            01/01/70 00:00      
                  evidently it is            01/01/70 00:00      
                     I just came to think of this quiz            01/01/70 00:00      
   Happy three months            01/01/70 00:00      
      It didnot work for me again.....            01/01/70 00:00      
         are you familiar with Ohms law            01/01/70 00:00      
         Write test-code for driving the diodes            01/01/70 00:00      
         I'm afraid to tell you,...            01/01/70 00:00      
            Don't shift so much            01/01/70 00:00      
               Yes, he must shift byte-wise...            01/01/70 00:00      
                  The alternative...            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Try this, Aamir...            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Thanks Sir.......            01/01/70 00:00      
                        I knew someone would do his work for him!            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Yes, and it was fun!            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Yes, of course ... but they were far too complex            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 I'm really sorry that they were "far too complex"...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    one step at a time            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       All many of these guys want is someone to do their work            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Big-bang            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Lessons learned            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Lessons...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                the difference            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   He learns and learns and learns...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      that would be true            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         That's the point...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            show me one            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Only feedback tells where the correct level is            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Knowledge is still the morst valuable gift            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   You really never had a look at something bigger??            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Read what I write, not what you want me to write            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Sorry, Per, but...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Atleast give OP some time            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               male cow manure            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               This guy is a STUDENT! And probably a lazy one.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Poor...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     It should be a career-ender            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               Ignorance is bliss?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Is this a Social Work forum?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Is this a Social Work forum? - no            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        ethical behaviour            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           Good elbows...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              Some people are just lazy, and think they're entitled.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              Robots has no feelings            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Where do you put the limit?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        Its not the point            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           Prove your point!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              point of disagreement ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 Teflon-avoidance of arguments            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    back to the old one            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 There must be a willingness to do the work!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    a nasty thought            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          by silence the OP has admitted            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             He has admitted??            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                it is a known fact that            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Do you think, that I aggree if I don't reply...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      yes, IF            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                It may not have been in this thread            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Plain bogus...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   School projects always problematic            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      This is a recurring theme            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Regular on Keil too            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Well, too many components            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    I was looking for a product I could buy, not a work-product.            01/01/70 00:00      
      And still stuck on the basics            01/01/70 00:00      
   This one's not too costly!            01/01/70 00:00      
      Nice one            01/01/70 00:00      
   facts            01/01/70 00:00      
   Silence talks...            01/01/70 00:00      
      It's because the due-date of his assignment has passed            01/01/70 00:00      
         No the OP, but the two drive-by-shooters            01/01/70 00:00      
            For Per Westermark            01/01/70 00:00      
            "Drive-by-shooters"? Are you cuckoo??            01/01/70 00:00      
               I think that was the basic problem            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Yes, and as we do not know the state of knowledge...            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Once more you focus on bowing and other nonsense            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Do you feel better now??            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Why?            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Answers...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Try looking from the other direction            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Forum rules...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Constant misunderstandings, or kicking in open doors            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          bow? no, but questions should be answered.            01/01/70 00:00      
                     but we do            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Making mistakes and confusing things...            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Missing help?            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Why do you all the time interfere in...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 When we ask an O/P a question ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    But that's it, Richard!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       You're right, Kai, but not in the way that you might think            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Can't see "not helped"            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    I'm tired, Per...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Weapons down Kai :)            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       we all are            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          we all are -            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             So enumerate the factual errors then            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                You were wrong            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   I wish that someday ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      I wish that someday ... Is that so            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         And your argument was?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Example            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               Just curious            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  No reverse way just wanted to show            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     assisted != having others to do the job            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        From this at least it dosent make            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           Come on, now, Ap Charles ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              Have you read what Aamir wrote?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 Yes, it looks like part of the assignment spec            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    Assignment specs? Hardly...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       I guess we see different things in the quoted post            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          These are good arguments...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             We'll never know for certain            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       switch not the big problem            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          Direct and Indirect calls            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             Size of feet?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                I can see your point            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                   Probably yet another language problem            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                      The O/P has a part to play, as do we of 8052.COM            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                      Yes            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          Oh dear, Per, please...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             In the eye of the beholder            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                Sorry, I didn't want to hurt you!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 again, it is obvious            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Not big-bang solution, but snippet of code!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                I'm not the only one who confuses things...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Yes, language barrier            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Yes, it's true ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                           wrong question            01/01/70 00:00      

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