Email: Password: Remember Me | Create Account (Free)

Back to Subject List

Old thread has been locked -- no new posts accepted in this thread
???
09/22/12 03:46
Read: times


 
#188422 - The price target comes from a few prosthetists
Responding to: ???'s previous message
Oliver Sedlacek said:
In general I think that any new product must be developed in three phases:

A - make it work

B - make it good

C - make it cheap

I don't know where you got the target sales cost figure of $5K from,

I agree with your assertions. I got the price target from talking to a couple of prosthetists. They work independently as contractors to hospitals/healthcare provider groups, rather than being part of a hospital/or healthcare organization. I'd guess a real prototype will cost on the order of $75k U.S. but I don't see a way to push the price down to where I was told a fellow might actually afford such a device. After all, it's only applicable to subset of the cases that the prosthetist has to handle, and, in fact, only to a subset of those. As a result, the apparatus must not only be reasonably priced, but also reasonable in size.

but that seems ridiculously cheap for any form of medical equipment. After all, I suspect the advanced prothesis cost more than that. I would press on with the concept you like best because designing it down to a hard cost target may mean that you just give up or you make something substandard that doesn't do the job. If you are first to market you will be setting the price expectation.


Well, this is just another proof-of-concept challenge, though it's mostly mechanical rather than being mostly electronic. The problem that I'm addressing at the moment is the definition of the problem, as nobody seems to know what the relative importance of such things as tissue density and distance to the bony structures is. They do agree that they are important, though. In the past, the problem was addressed as a whole, simply by taking a cast of the amputation stump and noting the location of the bony protuberances and major structures. In this approach, some importance has to be assigned to the relative locations of hard vs. soft tissue.

Over time, the technology associated with fitting prosthetic devices of the type that specifically interests me has been focused on fir, suspension, and alignment of the prosthetic limb. Much effort and technology has been devoted to the development of energy-storing types of feet. Collaboration between surgeons and prosthetists has reduced the business of fitting below-knee prostheses to a process of assembling off-the-shelf components, together with casting and applying an individualized socket, in which most of the weight is borne on the amputee's patellar tendon, much as it is on a normal leg. Most often, a somewhat flexible liner, somewhat reminiscent of a condom, is rolled onto the stump. This liner has a step-pilot on it, one that fits into a socket built into the portion just below the socket for the stump, and that aids in holding the stump in position, therefore suspending the prosthesis from that liner. Additionally, an external sleeve is applied to the entire assembly, restricting the airflow between the socket and the liner, which then forms a pneumatic suspension. Unfortunately, the most popular form of liner allows the suspension to yield in the vertical plane, thereby allowing a bit of "pistoning" which, in those cases, such as my own, where there may be one or more bony protuberances, tjat cam caise problems as the upper and lower surfaces corresponding with those protuberances alternative take pressure.

The fit is VERY critical, and, with current technology, is possible to accommodate thanks to cooperation between surgeon and prosthetist. However, in cases, such as my own, a traumatic amputation, the surgery was done with an emphasis on restoring the knee to full operation at the expense of neat and clean arrangement of the bones. The fit of my prostheses has been complicated by the resulting protuberance, and by the rather odd swelling that I still experience.

Prosthetists keep quite an array of components in stock, which means they have to invest a considerable amount in those components, hence, as individual businessmen, they are unable to invest many thousands of dollars in equipment that is applicable to only one type of prosthetic application. Oddly enough, the problem of fit is much better addressed today than it was ~30 years ago when I had my second amputation. The problem I'm trying to address is the fit, which is probably the most straightforward portion of the problem. This is the most costly portion, too, because it requires considerable labor and all the involved components are lost if the fit is unsuccessful. The suspension is the aspect of the task that is most critical to my own comfort, but there's a simple solution to that, and it's also bsed on fit, as the off-the-shelf liners popular today don't work on many traumatic amputation patients, such as I am.

I've spent lots of money on prostheses, as has the Veterans' Administration, yet I've had few really successfully fitted limbs, due to the way in which the job is done. I'm thinking that automating the fit of stump and socket will reduce the labor cost and material waste that often occurs in this process. Unfortunately, it has to be done inexpensively, because the individual prosthetist won't be able to invest a large amount in an apparatus that deals with something in which he's already invested a considerable amount.

The technology now exists by which, under computer control, a positive model of the stump with computer-edited modifications to accommodate differences in tissue texture, both the socket and the liner can be made with great precision and without ad-hoc application of experienc/black-magic. This has never been done, so far. With 3-D printers capable of producing a positive model without the error inherent in making a negative model (cast) and transferring/altering it in order to make a positive model on which the socket and liner can be based, I'm convinced that the process can be vastly refined.

RE



List of 49 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
How would you do this?            01/01/70 00:00      
   I have no idea if this would work, but ....            01/01/70 00:00      
      How would one actuate them?            01/01/70 00:00      
   strain guage            01/01/70 00:00      
      Yes, you might be onto something.            01/01/70 00:00      
         Computer-controlled?            01/01/70 00:00      
            computer controlled            01/01/70 00:00      
               Calibration + redundant force-limitation            01/01/70 00:00      
               Interesting problem            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Yes, it seemed coarse, at first.            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Precision is cheap ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        I don't follow ...             01/01/70 00:00      
                           Precision            01/01/70 00:00      
                              other considerations            01/01/70 00:00      
         Tomographic imaging?            01/01/70 00:00      
            There's one major problem ... maybe two ...            01/01/70 00:00      
               $100 MRI unit            01/01/70 00:00      
                  I'm not sure ...             01/01/70 00:00      
         Voice coil and LVDT?            01/01/70 00:00      
            Not having a lot of experience with this sort of stuff ...            01/01/70 00:00      
               Danger/problems with hydraulic since no spring effect            01/01/70 00:00      
                  A few things puzzle me with this approach            01/01/70 00:00      
   Ultra Sound Probing            01/01/70 00:00      
      Ultra-sound is better for measuring surface or sub-surface            01/01/70 00:00      
   I would not use volumetric imaging            01/01/70 00:00      
      I'm not sure what you mean            01/01/70 00:00      
         another thought            01/01/70 00:00      
            I consider that one of the more "pregnant" approaches            01/01/70 00:00      
               Lots of options available            01/01/70 00:00      
                  You've got to consider cost            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Cost/safety            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Cost target?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        The price target comes from a few prosthetists            01/01/70 00:00      
   comercial CMM            01/01/70 00:00      
      This only received cursory examination             01/01/70 00:00      
         pneumatic actuator            01/01/70 00:00      
            Yes ... but what would this cost?            01/01/70 00:00      
               100 rods?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Patient size ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                     That's what I'm considering            01/01/70 00:00      
                     AAACK! ... another double post ...             01/01/70 00:00      
                  it's not as big as you think!            01/01/70 00:00      
                     90% coverage            01/01/70 00:00      
                        So maybe vacuum pump for the too fat people            01/01/70 00:00      
   I do not know if this is relevant, but            01/01/70 00:00      
      I'll have to look into this.            01/01/70 00:00      
         Single air pressure sensor sensor for tip force guestimate            01/01/70 00:00      
   What about infrared?            01/01/70 00:00      
      How would you do this so it would retail for under $5k            01/01/70 00:00      

Back to Subject List