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???
07/12/09 14:49
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Msg Score: +1
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#167128 - You need a lot of individual precision for 0.1% all-range
Responding to: ???'s previous message
The R + 9R + 90R + ... implementation is really a much used solution. Some companies sells the resistors in a complete kit.

And as Erik noted, the temperature coefficient has to be taken into account. If you measure for several hours, then a lot can happen. Traditional high-quality equipment normally uses owens. You have to wait from minutes to an hour or more until the critical components has reached the expected temperature.

And even for equipment without owens, you normally will see a change in measurements during the first seconds to minutes because of changes in temperature and all capacitors reaching a stable state etc.

Some Agilent bench multimeters gives their specifications after a 30min warm-up, and when used within 18°C to 28°C which seems to indicate that they either have owens or software to handle this 10 degreee ambient range. I would expect that you can somewhere find a similar warm-up requirement for Fluke high-end multimeters.

And when you do read the documentation for instruments, they may claim x% + y digits at full scale or they may alternatively specify the error as % of full range + % of actual measure. If they specify 0.1% + 4 digits and full range is 4000 then they can have a measurement error of 0.001*4000 + 4 = +/- 8 ticks, which would be +/- 0.2%. After switching to the next higher range, the measurement could then (for some instruments) be 400 +/- 8 ticks which is an error of +/- 2%. This is not too uncommon figures when measuring DC current or DC voltage. Switching to AC or resistance normally drops the precision a lot.

But the above means that you can't just settle for 0.1% at full range - you need way better than 0.1% at full range, to get 0.1% at 10% of full range, i.e. directly before/after a range change. Time to take a closer look at them 0.01% resistors :)

Both Agilent and Fluke can supply you with a sub $1000 bench multimeter managing your precision, but not your speed. I would expect them to gain their precision from using dual-slope conversions, to allow them to cancel errors with the voltage reference on every single sample. That means that the quality of the shunt resistors will be the main error factor. In your situations, you need to know the value of your shunts with an error way less than 0.1% since you need to make room for the ADC errors and for fractional-scale measurements. It makes a big difference to try to auto-cablibrate once before a multi-hour run, and performing a dual-slope measurement for each and every measure. With the dual-slope, every single measure will cancel errors from the voltage reference. The two slopes are just ms apart, so there will be no significant temperature change or supply-voltage change between the measurement slope and the reference slope.

List of 85 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
Calibrating resistors using AT89C51RD2            01/01/70 00:00      
   The problem is not manufacturing tolerances...            01/01/70 00:00      
      those low drift 0.01% resistors are too expensive.            01/01/70 00:00      
         Now, that you enter into a discussion...            01/01/70 00:00      
            more details            01/01/70 00:00      
               Drift is well documented            01/01/70 00:00      
                  No longer published in todays datasheets...            01/01/70 00:00      
                     thanks that was very useful            01/01/70 00:00      
         You can't calibrate without a reference!            01/01/70 00:00      
            I have a Hioki DMM as a reference            01/01/70 00:00      
               But you said auto-calibration            01/01/70 00:00      
                  No            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Need lots of bits            01/01/70 00:00      
                        good analysis            01/01/70 00:00      
                           what design?            01/01/70 00:00      
               how precise is that?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  50000 counts            01/01/70 00:00      
                     you are making the usual mistake of ....            01/01/70 00:00      
         not just more precise, but lower drift as well            01/01/70 00:00      
   Calibration            01/01/70 00:00      
      can I regularly calibrate?            01/01/70 00:00      
         many issues involved            01/01/70 00:00      
            Then...            01/01/70 00:00      
         Assuming and supposing...            01/01/70 00:00      
            Ok...            01/01/70 00:00      
               How fast? How many bits? How stable input signal?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  more details            01/01/70 00:00      
               More details needed...            01/01/70 00:00      
                  spikes of source could be a problem            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Hhm...            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Hard to self-calibrate            01/01/70 00:00      
                           high sampling rate is not for calibration            01/01/70 00:00      
                        It is a constant current source            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Answers and questions...            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Answers            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Oh, I think I know what it is...            01/01/70 00:00      
                              That's true            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Difficult!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    since this is about calibrating known resistors ....            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Too fast for manual change            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    My solution            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       I have seen nothing yet that gives ....            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          How?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             two screw terminals and a precision resistor            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       What are exactly the shunts you switch?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          currently ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             You should test...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                good idea...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Well, I suspect...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      don't expect            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         A look into datasheet is always important...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Both problems            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Advantages of shunts in series            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Current scheme...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   How make before break?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      It is parallel like your second scheme.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Offset voltages?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Yes            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               Try the following...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Wht's the difference?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     You should, to find out what's wrong!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        Ok but Isn't it easier to calibrate?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           Yes, but...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              Purpose of auto calibration            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 No!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    Did you think about the shunt error during the "make"?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       disadvantages of series scheme            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          Not really...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             0.1%            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                Surprise!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                   voltage drop            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                      So low?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                momma! I want it all, but refuse to pay            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                   Wanting to achive a precision of 0.01%...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                      next he will make a perpetuum mobile            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    how true and ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       Precise enough            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          that MAY be true for VOLTS            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    OK, give me a few days time....            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       Try to avoid it at all!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          You need a lot of individual precision for 0.1% all-range            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             Owens            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                Yes            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             Good discussion but...            01/01/70 00:00      
   a hypothetical example            01/01/70 00:00      

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