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05/01/07 03:39
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#138356 - What makes you so important?
Responding to: ???'s previous message
I mean, aside from the fact you had the energy to start up and run this web site?

Craig Steiner said:
Richard Erlacher said:
Well, those deer and antelope, as you put it, and the bacteria and grasshoppers as well, are just as important as any and all humans.


Sorry, I must disagree with you.

Global climate change effects take place over decades. Nuclear screwups can mortally injure billions in a matter of days. If you truly don't care whether your offspring, and theirs, survive, then, perhaps it's worth the risk to you.


Again, whether it happens tomorrow or the next few decades, we're being told global climate change is going to kill, what, billions of people? I'm trying to remember if that was one of the "mainstream" numbers. If that's the case, perhaps the risk of losing a city to a nuclear accident is a better option than sacrificing billions to global warming?

Well, hopefully it will get rid of ALL of them ... particularly the ones who want their money now and care not a whit about the consequences for them, their progeny, or anyone else.

Again, I think it's all hogwash. But I still think nuclear power makes sense. And you don't have to have the plants located in the middle of population centers. One of the advantages we have in the U.S. is vast amounts of land that is far away from everything.

Well, just consider the nuclear plant in Platteville. It cost billions, never produced a picowatt of commercial power and is shut down. We're all still paying for that, too. Why?

Nuclear plants can't be built to operate within tolerable limits of safety in the U.S. because of the culture of corruption. Elsewhere, well, maybe, but not here.


I'm taking a wild guess, but based on that comment I suspect you have no idea what real corruption is.

You'd be mistaken there, sir. When I left government service, I had over 100 different countries' stamps in my passport.

If you have two guys building something, it's possible, not certain, but possible, since they can watch one another, that it will be done properly. If you have 10 people working on a nuclear plant, it's nearly certain someone will screw up. If you have 100 people working on the plant, it's nearly certain someone will cut a corner somewhere that will cause, no, not MAY cause, but will, absolutely, cause a problem, in order to save a dime. No, not a dime per kWH, but a dime, total. If you have 10000 people working on the plant, it's a virtual certainty that someone will compromise the safety of the facility to save someone a few bucks and to secure a bribe or cover up his own error.


Ok, you've convinced me. Forget nuclear power. Let's just keep burning carbon fuels. Just don't complain about me emitting CO2. I'm sick and tired of people telling me I can't emit CO2 but then they don't really like the alternatives, either. The only conclusion one can draw is that they do want us to go back to living in caves. No thanks.

A thinking man knows he has to clean up his own mess.


CO2 isn't a mess and it's not something I need to clean up. And I have absolutely no moral problem leaving my children with a few hundred extra PPM of CO2 in the atmosphere. Heck, I wouldn't have a moral problem leaving them with twice as much CO2. And it's not because I don't care about my children but because I don't believe that CO2 is a pollutant that needs to be cleaned up as if it were cyanide in a river.

There's a quantity of cynanide that's purported to be safe for those mining concerns in the mountains to be releasing or allowing to leech into the rivers. It's not about the substance, it's about the amount. I imagine you don't complain much about the occasional bird fesces on your house. If it were 100 kTons per day, however ... even a ton, or even 100 pounds, I'd expect to hear about your complaint.

BTW, I see you've pruned out the remarks you made that led to my comment below.

That's complete nonsense! It applies only to cases where increased volume allows for increased economies of scale. Once the infrastructure is in place, power distribution costs are pretty well fixed and, if anything, an increase in volume costs the supplier more rather than less.


Even with fixed infrastructure, it's cheaper to support one client (and related infrastructure) that requires 1000 widgets per month than 100 clients that require 10 widgets per month. Economies of scale apply even to energy.

I don't see how that can be true ... the counting is done by the infrastructure, the billing is done by the infrastructure, and no human effort is required at all. The much more complex and costly infrastructure required to serve a large factory or even office building costs MUCH more per kW delivered than the meter, wiring and 1/3 transformer on a typical residence, and that seldom has to be dealt with more than once every 80 years or so, while the office building or factory seldom survives that long.

Further, electric power is a scarce commodity. Why would users willing to economize want to pay more than users not willing to do that?


They don't pay more. They pay less. They just pay an initially higher rate. The rate goes down, not the total amount paid. If you use more energy, you still pay more than if you had used less.

Ture enough, but it's a metered commodity. It's like the cost of gasoline. If they use more, they pay more, but if they are effectively incentivized to squander it, the rest of us suffer from the resulting shortage.

XCEL Energy was, last year, pushing a contol system that allows them to turn off your AC so the buildings downtown can use theirs, even though their building occupancy is down to 10% after close of business. As a consequence, you get to come home, at 6 in the evening, to a house at 90+ degrees so the guys downtown who pay way less than half what you pay for your power can waste theirs.


And I declined that offer. Problem solved. And I still paid less than those guys downtown. They might get a lower kWh price, but the total they pay is more than me. I'm ok with that.


So you figure that it's OK if a guy who buys more hamburger than you at the same butcher shop where you buy yours pays 10% of what you pay per pound, because he buys more, that's OK, even though his increased waste every year causes your price to rise and the availability to suffer?

The obvious solution to the problem of restoring the condition of the planet to a state prior to the existence of industrialized man, is to remove industrialized man and his activities.


If you feel so strongly about it, you first. Personally, I don't think that's the obvious solution and I'm not willing to take it. Most people aren't. That's why I think the global warming cult is a bunch of extremist nuts that are out of tocuh with reality. And you seem to be personifying that extremism with great skill.

I will probably go first, but when I go it will be knowing that I've done as little as I could to exacerbate these problems. People like you who argue that there's a "global warming cult" know full well that it's not nuts and it's not wrong, but your own shortsighted self-interest is what makes you proclaim such beliefs in order to justify your egocentric practices.

Anyway, since most of us aren't willing to self-terminate to reduce CO2 emissions, you're going to have to come up with another solution. So far you don't like us emitting CO2 but you won't let us go nuclear. What do you propose short of taking out a knife and just eliminating ourselves on the spot?

Nobody's saying that anyone should self-terminate to reduce CO2 emissions, but lots of folks would advocate using less energy in general, and, specifically, avoid driving a small car when it's not necessary to drive a big gas-guzzling one. They'd advocate local power generation over distributed infrastructure, and they'd certainly advocate for supporting the currently considered legislation that allows end-users who also produce power to drive their excess power onto the grid and be compensated for it.

Regards,
Craig Steiner


One man? What is he in the greater scheme of things? In what way is he "better" or more significant than a bug or a paramecium or a bird or a spider, or a speck of dung, if all he can think of is how to satisfy his own wants, irrespective of the needs of the greater world?

RE



List of 346 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
I was talking to someone today            01/01/70 00:00      
   Man-made global warming            01/01/70 00:00      
      Nonetheless            01/01/70 00:00      
         Arthur C Clarke            01/01/70 00:00      
            since Richard misunderstood me            01/01/70 00:00      
               it is clean, safe and zero emissions            01/01/70 00:00      
                  It implies distribution of electric power ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                     You dismiss this further down...            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Yes, but your presentation is irrelevant!            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Prove it.            01/01/70 00:00      
                              It\'s obvious!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Anybody need a coach for their debate team?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Well, Rob, YOU voted for him, didn\'t you?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Huh?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Zero Emission mythos            01/01/70 00:00      
                     you missed the biggie            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Touché!            01/01/70 00:00      
                        That wouldn't be an issue if it were done right!            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Business Electric Rates            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Good for them!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 BALONEY made from horsefeathers            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 What courage?            01/01/70 00:00      
                     No ... the batteries will be lithium types            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Not enough lithium            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Wikipedia for one            01/01/70 00:00      
                              65 ppm?            01/01/70 00:00      
         Elaborate            01/01/70 00:00      
            the real solution ...            01/01/70 00:00      
               You can see the weather changing its true            01/01/70 00:00      
               What an excellent idea!            01/01/70 00:00      
                  You'll probably get your wish, but why rush it?            01/01/70 00:00      
            Stewardship            01/01/70 00:00      
               Stewardship            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Basic point.            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Basic counterpoint            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Says who ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        ... so you WOULD defaecate in your living room?            01/01/70 00:00      
                           I do not know if this modern convenience called a            01/01/70 00:00      
                  I think the real problem is ...free hot water            01/01/70 00:00      
                     hot hot heat            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Some people heat their houses with that hot water!            01/01/70 00:00      
                        In Reykjavik, Iceland, they all, do.            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Stewardship\'s for somebody else, right?            01/01/70 00:00      
         CO2            01/01/70 00:00      
            Dosis sola venenum fecit.            01/01/70 00:00      
               SIze isn't everything            01/01/70 00:00      
            What about cyanide in your drinking water?            01/01/70 00:00      
      Degrees.            01/01/70 00:00      
         Sources please.            01/01/70 00:00      
            Sure, but ...            01/01/70 00:00      
               Excellent references            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Historic data.            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Historical scales            01/01/70 00:00      
                        is THIS a reason?            01/01/70 00:00      
                           what emit the most CO2?            01/01/70 00:00      
                              on a similar tone...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 what do you prefer?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    more emissions            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    I use both            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Yes, it is a reason            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Wrong Pollutants            01/01/70 00:00      
                              perfectly good reason to expunge the offender            01/01/70 00:00      
                           there's another issue ... the elephant in the room            01/01/70 00:00      
                              What ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 It's a balance issue ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Come on            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Planck's law...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       And            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Oops!            01/01/70 00:00      
      If it's concensus, it isn't spelled correctly!            01/01/70 00:00      
   Regardless of the source, if it's a problem            01/01/70 00:00      
      to be honest...            01/01/70 00:00      
         When I was a boy ...            01/01/70 00:00      
            Whatever            01/01/70 00:00      
               Ice Age?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Not that hot yet            01/01/70 00:00      
            Now I'm confused.            01/01/70 00:00      
               Take your pick ...            01/01/70 00:00      
      The Big Ball in The SKY            01/01/70 00:00      
         Gonna get warmer, with or without us            01/01/70 00:00      
            Sunspot.            01/01/70 00:00      
               I rest my case.            01/01/70 00:00      
            Visiting            01/01/70 00:00      
   It's all about $$$$$$$$            01/01/70 00:00      
      Can you provide even one example?            01/01/70 00:00      
         Intuition            01/01/70 00:00      
            the truth tends to be in the middle            01/01/70 00:00      
               Yes it can hurt.            01/01/70 00:00      
                  For those interested.... a good website            01/01/70 00:00      
                     and a good video            01/01/70 00:00      
                  (OT): I don't understand...            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Complete backfire            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Ah, so....            01/01/70 00:00      
            Perhaps, but also ...            01/01/70 00:00      
               More like the kettle calling the pot a pot.            01/01/70 00:00      
                  let us get a few things straight ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Oh sigh            01/01/70 00:00      
                        vhemt.org            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Density            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Evidence            01/01/70 00:00      
                     "scientific" evidence            01/01/70 00:00      
                        You know what evidence is            01/01/70 00:00      
                           If you want            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Note that "wackos" is spelled correctly!            01/01/70 00:00      
         Yes            01/01/70 00:00      
            No            01/01/70 00:00      
            under the influence            01/01/70 00:00      
               Percentage vs Absolute Value            01/01/70 00:00      
                  That\'s the point            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Richard, do you even trust yourself?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        I don't know whom to trust ... perhaps nobody            01/01/70 00:00      
         One example            01/01/70 00:00      
            the converse            01/01/70 00:00      
            Horsefeathers!            01/01/70 00:00      
      and power            01/01/70 00:00      
         Mmh, I'd like to see some sources.            01/01/70 00:00      
            Wate vapor            01/01/70 00:00      
               proportions again            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Whatever            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Acute vs. chronic.            01/01/70 00:00      
               Differences.            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Strange            01/01/70 00:00      
                     H20 vs. CH4 vs. CO2.            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Since you like to type...            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Timescales.            01/01/70 00:00      
                              There are short term effects too            01/01/70 00:00      
                        I am aware            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Obscure scientists            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Talking of carbon footprints            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Pb-free            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    How it relates to global warming            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       re global warming            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       what???            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Angry and scared.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Logic problem            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Since you quoted me...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Mandates ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   States rights            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      And, and...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Revenue of course...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                nuclear?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   ridiculous?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Not quite wasteless.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Neutron activation            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      this is not the case            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         fusion is easy!!!!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   nuclear\'s not much better ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      radiation            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Hyperbole            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             the EPA            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       mentalist            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    consumerism            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Cost of CO2 removal from a coal power plant            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          And that's exactly ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Why babble about unnecessary inconveniences,            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Why do you think nuclear is clean?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   how much CO2 does it generate? ZERO            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   recycling is automatic            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Inconveniences.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                not inconvenient for me            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   what are you waiting for            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      I think you misquoted me            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Nope            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Nonsense!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               Disagree            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  What makes you so important?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Sigh            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        Corruption            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           The fish ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        is this a "red herring"? "Everybody does it."            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           Oh ok            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              Where you sit determines what you see ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 the top creature            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    Russian 'imitation' cognac, I hope            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       maybe inadequate translation?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 Reasons            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    Did you notice the jump in gasoline prices?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       now we know what you reelly want            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          hate to tell you this eric            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             Tax            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             What susidies?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                consider the 1 mil/kilobuck ratio of oil-leases            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             No subsidies            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                You don't serously believe that, do you?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                   Please            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                   Oil companies?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                      It's an accounting trick ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                         Basis of opinion            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                            agenda? no ... I just like to argue ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                         re:taxes            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                            They're just trying to make a buck.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                            Not manipulation, market            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                               Reality vs. theory            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                  Close, but not quite.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                     Hm .. ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                        Not sure            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                           East of Fallon            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                           MPG            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                              maybe?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                           It\\\'s a bit hidden, but I found it ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                              Also            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                        Back Yards            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                     re:nimby            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                        Exxon            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                               re:oil            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                  BP            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                            So how big is your gas tank ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                               cheaper gas            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                  Good for you.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                     OT - Octane rating            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                        Diesels ??            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                           Try imports.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                           One's a truck...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                        I know.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                           I somewhat recall - a long tim,e ago            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          I once had a girlfriend ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       Response            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          If you\'re a gambling man ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             Continuing on            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             Yes, Richard, man is evil            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                I can't remember that far back ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 What do you see?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               What corruption?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Those are all minor examples            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Automobiles "have at least one drawback"            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            And all it took was ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               Hindsight's always 20/20            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  hindsight????            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     but that's where the nuke debacles have occurred            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         to Richard            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            CPUs            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            I knew that would come up ... ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               You are beginning to scare me Richard            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  I'm an animal lover            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     yep ... me too ... and on an ATV at 1000 yards            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Yup ... there's only one animal I don't like ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Engineering 101...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            That's what proves the fools are running things            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               My point...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  A few corrections ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          particularly since transport is the lion's share            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Nature            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Can you name ONE human act of benefit to the earth            01/01/70 00:00      
                              triangle, shmiangle            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Daylight Savings            01/01/70 00:00      
               Oh, you ring a bell there            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Its only just becoming apparent            01/01/70 00:00      
         and what are these conditions?            01/01/70 00:00      
            Synthesis            01/01/70 00:00      
               the relationship between energy, money and ecology            01/01/70 00:00      
               also an interesting related wikipedia article            01/01/70 00:00      
         Hot ?            01/01/70 00:00      
         Geologist pokes his head in here...            01/01/70 00:00      
            Sci Fi            01/01/70 00:00      
               Read it back in college            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Freon            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Effects.            01/01/70 00:00      
                        re:freon            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Convection.            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Just like ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Freon at the South Pole            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Because ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                              re:convection            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 No studies ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 This should show you guys ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Disagree            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       We'll never know who's right            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          "Net benefit"            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Right            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       The religion of economy.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          So you theorize            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Actually            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Uhm            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             a noble thought, but            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Save the starving            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Data.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Ok, see above            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   CoolBiz            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Held off?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       I wouldn't worry            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Big lies            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             "Natural"            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Definition            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Heheh            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   inorganic food            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Carbonaceous?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                It stems from human huberis            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             it's not self-loathing            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Why ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   I wouldn\'t attribute that to \"fun\"            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Here pussy pussy            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Speak for yourself, Richard            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   When was the last time            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      what is "environment"?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         it is the same thing that people do            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Pre-historic oxygen levels            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Nature's balance            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      not a bacteria, but            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       It's a religious issue for you gross-polluters            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Nobody\'s going to switch sides ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          I know...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Well, that wasn't my goal.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Another class            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   You've been brainwashed!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Vested interests            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Consequences ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Socialism            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         It's time to reconsider.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            No evidence            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               It's like I said ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            echo            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Suspicions.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Ok            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Two points            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               Commons            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Commons            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Commons            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     no            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        Rabbits in Canada            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           Population dynamics            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Tragedy of unregulated commons.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        Okay            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Freon            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Freon conspiracy            01/01/70 00:00      
   This just in...80% reduction needed...            01/01/70 00:00      
      worked too            01/01/70 00:00      
      I missed something            01/01/70 00:00      
         Iron in the ocean            01/01/70 00:00      
            Ocean anywhere            01/01/70 00:00      
               Iron inthe Oceans            01/01/70 00:00      
                  while it may have been in a book            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Try "SOFeX"            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Take up ?            01/01/70 00:00      
   Credit where credit is due...            01/01/70 00:00      
      Getting clse thoughe            01/01/70 00:00      
         Editorial control            01/01/70 00:00      
   the stupidest way to do things            01/01/70 00:00      
      Tax !            01/01/70 00:00      
         Somebody please throw some brains ...            01/01/70 00:00      
   the REAL problem            01/01/70 00:00      
      the people who brainwashed me can spell!            01/01/70 00:00      
         maybe not            01/01/70 00:00      
            They're behind on their washing ... and so am I            01/01/70 00:00      
               well this is TOTALLY off topic, but anyhow            01/01/70 00:00      
                  So you're a costco shopper too, eh?            01/01/70 00:00      

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