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???
07/25/06 20:19
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#121041 - look around ... it's already like that ...
Responding to: ???'s previous message
Richard Erlacher said:
I once went to a product announcement that served several cases of wine that sold for $10K per bottle.

Craig said:
So? Wine isn't gas. Wine is a luxury, and $10k wine is an excessive luxury. No-one disputes that rich people have money to spend on things most people wouldn't. That doesn't have much to do with gas costing $100k/gallon, though.

Well, we'll have to disagree on that. Ask any Frenchman, and you'll quickly learn that wine is a necessity of life, and, in keeping with the addage, "driving is a privilege," gasoline is a luxury. If it weren't, the government would be handing out "fuel stamps" as well as food stamps. The gov doesn't agree with the Frenchman, though.

What do you think will happen when the gas supply goes to nearly zero? What will the last gallon cost?

Richard Erlacher said:
Rich people are not all stupid. Their behavior, however, when they're spending money that they view as an inexhaustible resource, can be pretty reckless. It's like the government when it's spending YOUR money.

Craig said:
No argument there. But that (in the case of the rich, not in the case of the government, hopefully) is their choice. Everyone is free to spend money on what they want; and if someone has so much money that they are inclined to buy cases of $10k wine, hey, I'm happy they have that much money to blow. I hope to be that rich someday, too (though I'll never spend $10k on wine).


Now, the "real" point is that the wine wasn't paid for by the individuals who decided to buy and serve it. It was bought by the shareholders in this company, now defunct. The guy who bought it still drives his BMW, though at least one of the shareholders took her own life when the stock tanked, as it held the bulk of her investment as she'd followed the advice of the company management. This is not a unique story, BTW.

Craig said:
This does not mean that those same people are stupid and are intentionally working to make the middle-class poor and the poor people extinct.

Now, I didn't say they wanted to make the poor people extinct. They just want to make the "middle class" poor, so they'll be easy to enslave.

First of all, though, I'd recommend that you look into the background of G.W. Bush, G.H.W. Bush, Herbert Walker (that's the H. W.) and maybe search in the context of "eugenics." Maybe that will give you a little more information.

Richard Erlacher said:
However, most of the investment in the solar, wind, and hydrogen energy generation future is being made by the same people who presently control the fossil-fuel generation and petroleum industry. They're interested in profits within their own lifetimes, and couldn't care a whit whether the world ends the day after they depart.


Craig said:
Ok, you lost me there. So most of the investment in alternative energies is being made by the "bad guys" (the oil industry), and yet that's somehow proof that they're not interested in alternatives and are trying to keep people on petroleum???


My point is that they've taken control of this alternative so that persons who have less-corrupt motives can't. The key to truly efficient energy production is to eliminate the "large" producer/distributor. Production and distribution inefficiencies waste more than they deliver. However, that's how "big energy" makes its money. Once we stop using oil, natural gas, and grid-distributed electricity in our homes, they go under. Manufacturers then would have to pay their fair share of the production/distribution cost, most of which is borne by the "little guy" right now. Just ask yourself, "Why would I charge someone LESS for using MORE of a scarce resource?" That's what "big energy" does with big industry. It would be different, perhaps, if the resource were abundant, but it's clearly not.

In the meantime, numerous universities throughout the country have demonstrated that it's not only possible, but economically feasible to construct a comfortable house with the "usual" conveniences, e.g. multiple TV's, dishwasher, washer, dryer, toaster, microwave oven, heating/cooling, etc, completely independent of the grid. Moreover, they've shown that it can be connected to the grid at a profit, in that they produce more electricity than they need and can "run the meter backwards" and get a check from the utility company.

Power companies, however, are already taking steps to avoid the latter. A close friend of mine is currently building a retirement home. His power company in extreme southern Colorado has specific provisions in their contract that not only refuse to pay for power contributed by the customer, but preventing the customer from contributing his excess to the grid at no cost. Unfortunately for them, they couldn't get the legislature to permit them to outlaw producing your own power in general. Using your own surplus to offset the apparently short supply on the grid shall not be an option, according to them.

When I lived on my little farm, back in the '70's, I endeavored to obtain permits to install a wind turbine to generate electricity. Though I was not even a customer of theirs, the Public Service Company of Colorado enagaged a lawyer to prevent me from doing just that, claiming that it was against the public interest. That was not what stopped me, but it surely gave me pause. I was served by the Rural Electric Association.

They (big energy) are the ones who are making sure the oil and coal are all gone before anyone makes reasonable progress in the U.S. toward a hydrogen-based or bio-fuel based economy. The spend billions annually on promoting disinformation about the relative costs of various modes of energy production. They spend a fortune on lobbyists to prevent the government from going down that road. Those same billions could be used to reduce pollution, increase efficiency, and lower costs to their customers.

Craig said:
That's a popular conspiracy theory. I don't think it can be proven. But there's certainly nothing stopping other people from making progress on hydrogen whether big oil wants to or not. Heck, a good start would be if the environmental wackos spent their money encouraging a hydrogen economy rather than trying to stall development to protect some cricket.


If you've been watching this since the '50's it's quite observable that it's not just a theory. It's very clear that the energy producers have colluded to shift the burden for the bulk of energy production to the small user. They discount for large volume, yet most of the costs are associated with the large-volume users. When the grid goes down because of excessive energy demand, it's not because of MY air conditioner. It's the dozens of large-volume users that bring it down. Nevertheless, they campaign, as Colorado's Excel Energy has done, by offering a one-time payment of $25 to let them turn off your A/C during high demand, yet they don't do that to their large-volume users. They simply let them drop into a higher-discount price class because they've used more energy.

Just look at how the Bush administration proposes they should generate the hydrogen for their "hydrogen economy!" They want to use oil and/or natural gas. It therefore offers no relief from the fossil-fuel shortage, nor does it offer relief from the greenhouse gas emissions from using fossil-fuels.

They're the ones who are dragging their feet in the wind generation efforts. They're the ones who want to promote ethanol, which uses more petroleum than it saves us, yet costs more, agricultural subsidies aside.

As for the environmental wackos, well, I'm not sure where I stand on that, but until they figure out a way to build a nuclear plant in some way that absolutely ensures that they won't pollute MY air, water, thermal environment, or soil resources, due to some corrupt guy taking a bottle of whiskey to overlook a faulty this-or-that, not to mention guaranteeing that there isn't some teensy mistake that causes a Chernobyl sort of event, or worse, I'll side with the wackos. I'm not as worried about faulty engineering as I am about the corruption resulting in faulty construction or inspection.

Craig said:
If you say so. Personally, I don't think it's big oil's responsibility to replace their product. I agree, it might not be in their interest. That being the case, the fact that they've spent any money on alternative energy is amazing. I'm not waiting for big oil to promote nuclear energy. I'm waiting for big oil's competitor to promote nuclear energy.


That's not their competitor. It once was, but they've taken it over. Keep in mind who THEY are. It's not just coal and petroleum, but it's also generation and distribution. They're just trying to monopolize it now while they can do that on the cheap.

They're also the same guys who buy those 43-thousand square foot houses that waste more energy than ever before, and they're the ones who want to ruin the last pristine wildlife refuge in the north slope just to gain, and ultimately export, about three months' U.S. supply of petroleum.

Craig said:
Again, if they have money to spend on big houses, that's their decision. It's no more our right to tell them how to spend their money than it is the Walmart clerk's right to tell me whether or not I can buy a new computer when I already have five in the house.

As for Alaska, the economically feasible reserves located there could eliminate our need to import oil from a certain South American country for 30 years. Not a bad idea.


Nobody knows whether the reserves there are economically feasible. The higher the price goes, though, the more it tips the balance in big-oil's favor. Some people spout off about 30 years' supply, while others, just as reputable but not employed by oil companies, claim it is, at most, an equivalent of 90-days' imports. Some say, in response to the risks inherent in transporting the oil by sea, it won't even be used in the U.S. but will be exported. I wouldn't know about that, though.

Richard Erlacher said:
If the government were truly interested in improving our energy situation, it would subsidize independent efforts in photovoltaic single-home energy generation systems so we could get away from the huge losses due to transmission and distribution inefficiencies.

Craig said:
No, if it were truly interested in improving our energy situation, it would invest in nuclear energy. Nuclear is cheap enough that we don't need to make our cities even more ugly by putting solar panels on every house (I'm a pilot and I can't even imagine flying over a city with solar panels on every house).


Now there's a good excuse for skipping over elimination of the biggest drag on the planet since the evolution of man!

Craig said:
I don't deny that our government (not just the current administration, but all administrations) are very unimaginative when it comes to energy. There is comfort in the status quo, and not just because of big oil. The worldwide impact of our energy independence would be massive. It'd be huge. Countries would go bankrupt, we could very easily withdrawl from areas of the world that would become even more unstable than they already are leading to a power vaccum. I can understand a certain reluctance to rocking the boat for reasons that go far beyond contributions from big oil.

What? You'd leave the entire population enslaved to the big-energy (It's not just "big oil.") industry just because you don't think solar panels are pretty? Why not just fly somewhere else? People in town don't appreciate the noise anyway.

Richard Erlacher said:
If the government were truly interested in improving the U.S. energy situation, they'd ration gasoline, and adjust the price paid on the basis of consumption.


Craig said:
Oh, come on. You don't really believe that rationing and price controls is an effective solution in a capitalistic economy? Sheesh.


Richard Erlacher said:
If you use 10 gallons per week, you could buy those ten gallons at a subsidized price, say, $2 per gallon.


You left out the significant portion of my initial comment, namely that only the thrifty ones get the subsidy, and the rest can, if they want buy the thrify guys' excess at an elevated price. Similar to what Kyoto recommends be done with pollution, isn't it? THe subsidy would have to be paid for by the 10x, 100x, 1000x, and so on, penalties for using too much gas. I'd be that a company, with 10000 vehicles in its fleet, faced with only a 10 gallon per week ration for their entire corporation, would happily buy that excess ration for $100 per gallon.
Ok, so not only do you believe in rationing and price controls, you also want to subsidize? There's a country about 90 miles south of Florida you might be interested in relocating to. Their government policies might be more to your liking.

Why not? The government subsidizes the oil production and distribution, or, rather, the taxpayers do, at great cost. What's more, the scheme would work more like the energy trading market, wherein guys like me, who use less than 10 gallons per week, could sell their excess ration to guys who need 40-50 gallons per week. I'd be richer, and they'd be able to drive. The money, after all, would come out of the usage tax paid by the guys who won't walk down to the street corner.

It's not only the outrageous short-sightedness of the big-energy interests that I'm complaining about, you know. It's the fact that we also have to pay for all this stuff twice. Our farmers can't compete without government supports. Our energy industry would founder if not for the government handouts, and the coal and petroleum industries would both die off, too, but for the 5-cent per acre 99-year leases of land that would otherwise be useful and productive, and produce income for the government that it now has to extract from that shrinking middle-class.

There's more to this, but it's getting too small to manage in this environment. I think this is probably plenty to chew on.

RE


List of 97 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
anyone interested?            01/01/70 00:00      
   Fancy Golf Cart?            01/01/70 00:00      
      price            01/01/70 00:00      
         If they really want to help the environment...            01/01/70 00:00      
            they claim to come out with a 'family sedan'            01/01/70 00:00      
               By that time it will be a bargain!            01/01/70 00:00      
                  ???            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Not exactly ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                        I used to            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Ha bloody ha.            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Ok            01/01/70 00:00      
                           You might change your mind            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Doubt it            01/01/70 00:00      
                           let's examine this more closely.            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Have you been to Europe lately>            01/01/70 00:00      
                              respons            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 I've met a few of them, too.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    So?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       look around ... it's already like that ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Still disagree            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Counting subsidies?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Oh yea ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                I'm not sure that's true ... Russia has 'em            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Which brings us right back            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      That's why I say it's off by 7%            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Reasonable people do disagree            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             You don\'t have to agree, but think about it            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Transformer efficiency            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Frankly, I've no idea            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   From my house I count 61 ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Who cares            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Power distribution            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            I think one of the demo teams was from Canada            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Nobody, and that\'s part of the problem            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            What about            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               Grids            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  but would it be necessary?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               They've got all that ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Grids            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     True, but not in all cases            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  assumption            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     double problem            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Yes, it's an assumption            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        batterys            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           not less, but more of a problem            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     That said            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        lead acid            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           who cxares about the temperature            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              at 2000 degrees F, it would melt iron            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 promising I'd say            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Faith            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       tried and failed            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          ah, yes ... I remember it well ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Nixon tried price controls            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                What was price-controlled ... I don't remember.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   google for it - gas and oil among others            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       sad, but true            01/01/70 00:00      
                           any news as to the REAL solution?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        RE "doom and gloom"            01/01/70 00:00      
                           ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Putting the \"mental\" in environmental            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Of that there can be no doubt            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Sure            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Not every acre, my friend            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Price of Gas            01/01/70 00:00      
                           The cost of the alternatives.            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Over here.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Luckily            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    I've been watching this ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Denmark just passed 10%            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          They're a world leader in this regard            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Nuclear            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 U.S. industry is too corrupt            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    the best argument FOR nuclear energy is 3 mile isl            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       chernobyl            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Even Chernobyl            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Chernobyl and coal            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                another thing to consider            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Re. Chernobyl and coal            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Name one.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Just consider our commander in chief            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Not a poor decision in their eyes            01/01/70 00:00      
                              I doubt they have brushes            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 That is why nuclear generation is so appealing            01/01/70 00:00      
                        have you no Farmers market where you live ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                           We used to, back when I was a "farmer"            01/01/70 00:00      
   Not a Tesla engine            01/01/70 00:00      
      Tesla turbine            01/01/70 00:00      
         It's just a name ...            01/01/70 00:00      
            Possom on a Stick            01/01/70 00:00      
               Turtle tea            01/01/70 00:00      
               is that Okie spellinh            01/01/70 00:00      
                  I think Webster spells it with a leading \'O\'            01/01/70 00:00      
                     webster            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Opossum on the half shell?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Just Southern Courtesy            01/01/70 00:00      
                     How thoughful of you!            01/01/70 00:00      

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