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???
07/24/06 06:23
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#120902 - let's examine this more closely.
Responding to: ???'s previous message
Let's start with this question,

Are these guys predicting a boom on the order of 5 orders of magnitude in the cost of gas, or are they predicting a complete collapse of the U.S. dollar? Neither seems probable to the degree of 5 orders of magnitude.


Both, really, as there are several things at work.

(1) Yes, the U.S. dollar is due to experience a "correction," as it currently is grossly (40%<n<60%) overvalued. It is being inflated by the government's policies, and by the vast borrowing from foreign entities which benefit from an overvalued dollar.

(2) Since the US$ is essentially a function of the actual productivity of the U.S. work force, the entire work force, not just the ones who are actually working, it will continue to decline in value. Today, it takes more man-hours to produce less and less, hence, U.S. industry, such as it is, continues to move manufacturing and any other processes it can offshore. This is wise, as the U.S. worker is no longer willing to work more than 4-5 hours per week, spending the rest of his time in useless jibber-jabber, personal phone calls, carrying on "cottage-industry" activities without the knowledge of his employer, etc.

(3) As demand for petroleum in Asia increases, the price, relative to the declining US$ will continue to increase at a rate proportional to the price, just as nitrocellulose ignition pressure increases at a rate proportional to the pressure.

The increase in the number of automobiles in China has been growing at a rate quite consistent with that of bacterial culture growth, i.e. where the rate of growth increases proportionally to the population. I doubt it is much different in India.

There is no reason why the marketers of automobiles should behave any differently there than they behave here. Neither is there any reason to expect that the population will behave any more intelligently there than here.

This will put pressure on the world's crude oil supply that has heretofore been unseen.

(4) Since U.S. oil importers' profits are a function of the price, they LOVE the price increase. It costs them nothing extra to import crude costing $250 per barrel as compared with $75 per barrel. Refining doesn't cost more for $250/barrel crude either.

(5) Whie the face of the U.S. government laments the high price of gasoline at the pump, the persons behind that face all profit from its increase. The cabinet is loaded with individuals heavily invested in the petrochemical industry.

(6) As the pump price of gasoline has gone from under $2 to over $3 per gallon, U.S. consumers have continued to consume greater and greater quantities of gasoline. This has dumbfounded economists and industry analysts.


People will start using bikes and scooters long before gas costs $100k a gallon. Gas will rise to the price people, collectively, are willing (and able) to pay. And not a penny more. $100k is far more than anyone is willing or able to pay.


I'd say that (6) Seems to contradict that.


Nonsense. A rich person can only stay rich if others have money to spend on what they're selling. If everyone else is on the street killing each other, the rich people's wealth is unsustainable. It's not in their interest.


That depends entirely on what's being consumed. Our commander in chief has long been known to be a eugenicist. The form that takes, among his associates and peers, is that they want to strip the wealth from the middle class and absorb it themselves, so that they can "manage" those resources in a way that allows them, the oligarchy, to exploit the remaining population by selling them the products that they need to survive, and that they will consume on an ongoing basis. The rich man, since he owns everything, doesn't have a need for labor, aside from someone to mow his lawn, wash his clothes, harvest his produce, and build whatever he wants. Since unemployment will be in the 80-95% range, many people will simply starve. Of course, someone will have to bury them ...

The rich man doesn't need to sell anything durable, so it matters not whether anyone can buy it. He already owns everything. If his customers are only able to afford the essentials, which they consume in their entirety, the picture is changed. If the rich man owns everything, and the labor force owns nothing, then (a) the only thing the rich man needs is labor, and the provider of labor is dependent on him to provide the things he needs for survival. The rich man's wealth doesn't need to be "sustainable" since the rich man doesn't have to buy anything, since he already owns it. The only one who needs to buy anything is the poor labor provider, and he buys housing, clothing, food, energy, etc, from the rich man.

The price of gas and the move to nuclear energy is not an all or nothing proposition. As the price of gas increases, more and more demand will be placed on electricity and, to support that, there will be a move to nuclear energy to generate electricity and, in turn, create hydrogen for hydrogen fuel cells. There will be a gradual, not sudden, move away from gas and to nuclear-generated hydrogen fuel cells. This will also reduce demand for gas which will keep the price in check until nuclear energy is essentially 100% of our power supply and the price of gas will drop to $1E-05 rather than $1E05. When no-one needs it, it will be of no value at all.


That would be true except for the demand for gasoline in other parts of the world. China and India, for example, are rapidly developing infrastructure which will produce more petrol-fueled automobiles and more demand for them. If the U.S. gave up the use of petroleum for anything at all today, the price would not fall to 0.


The higher prices of gas is a much-needed motivation to invest in nuclear energy and related infrastructure and end our dependence on a limited natural resource that is not finite and for which we depend on others. The current high price of gas very likely will ultimately be a blessing, not a curse.


That would probably be true if the U.S. consumer were a sensible one. However, the automobile is too much a symbol of status, personality, fashion, etc. They'll drive 'em even when it costs $100 a gallon. Fewer of them will drive 'em when the price hits $100K per gallon, but some will. Some people drink wine that costs tens of thousands of dollars per bottle, too.


I might believe $5/gallon, but seriously doubt $15. Demand for gas will collapse before then. Going from $2 to $3 might mean a change in monthly cost from $160/month to $240/month for the average budget. That's annoying, but manageable for most people. But going from $3 to $15 is a monthly cost jumping from $240/month to about $1200/month. Very few people will be able to absorb a $1000/month increase in gas, demand will collapse, and gas prices will fall to the price that people are willing and able to pay.


This would be true if the oil market were a closed one. What I'd expect is that when the price gets too high for U.S. consumers, the people in other parts of the world will drive. What you also have to take into consideration is the amount everyone pays for gasoline whether they use it or not. There are tax benefits of many sorts, oil depletion allowances, cheap leases of government owned land, and many others. Ask any European what they pay for gasoline.

The oligarchs are already in positions of power and influence. They'll see to it that there is plenty of cheap labor. At first, they'll accomplish that by allowing cheap labor to be imported. They'll also move manufacturing to other countries. The "middle class" will be required to pay for the government-funded services consumed by the imported labor. Fewer and fewer decently paying jobs will be available, so those people who formerly owned houses will be forced to sell them, ultimately to the oligarchs. After a time, all houses everywhere in the U.S. will belong to the oligarchs, about a hundred of them, though they'll try to reduce their own number. All food production and distribution, energy production and distribution, medical care facilities, and transportation systems, etc. will belong to them/him. Unemployment will rise. The standard of living will fall, until the U.S. majority will wish they were as wealthy as the average citizen of the poorest third-world country.

Surely you can see that this is already in motion. Unless people here, very soon, get their heads out of their recti, and the earbuds out of their ears, it will be too late.

RE



List of 97 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
anyone interested?            01/01/70 00:00      
   Fancy Golf Cart?            01/01/70 00:00      
      price            01/01/70 00:00      
         If they really want to help the environment...            01/01/70 00:00      
            they claim to come out with a 'family sedan'            01/01/70 00:00      
               By that time it will be a bargain!            01/01/70 00:00      
                  ???            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Not exactly ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                        I used to            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Ha bloody ha.            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Ok            01/01/70 00:00      
                           You might change your mind            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Doubt it            01/01/70 00:00      
                           let's examine this more closely.            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Have you been to Europe lately>            01/01/70 00:00      
                              respons            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 I've met a few of them, too.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    So?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       look around ... it's already like that ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Still disagree            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Counting subsidies?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Oh yea ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                I'm not sure that's true ... Russia has 'em            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Which brings us right back            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      That's why I say it's off by 7%            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Reasonable people do disagree            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             You don\'t have to agree, but think about it            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Transformer efficiency            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Frankly, I've no idea            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   From my house I count 61 ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Who cares            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Power distribution            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            I think one of the demo teams was from Canada            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Nobody, and that\'s part of the problem            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            What about            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               Grids            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  but would it be necessary?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               They've got all that ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Grids            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     True, but not in all cases            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  assumption            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     double problem            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Yes, it's an assumption            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        batterys            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           not less, but more of a problem            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     That said            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        lead acid            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           who cxares about the temperature            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              at 2000 degrees F, it would melt iron            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 promising I'd say            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Faith            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       tried and failed            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          ah, yes ... I remember it well ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Nixon tried price controls            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                What was price-controlled ... I don't remember.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   google for it - gas and oil among others            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       sad, but true            01/01/70 00:00      
                           any news as to the REAL solution?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        RE "doom and gloom"            01/01/70 00:00      
                           ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Putting the \"mental\" in environmental            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Of that there can be no doubt            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Sure            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Not every acre, my friend            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Price of Gas            01/01/70 00:00      
                           The cost of the alternatives.            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Over here.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Luckily            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    I've been watching this ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Denmark just passed 10%            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          They're a world leader in this regard            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Nuclear            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 U.S. industry is too corrupt            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    the best argument FOR nuclear energy is 3 mile isl            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       chernobyl            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Even Chernobyl            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Chernobyl and coal            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                another thing to consider            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Re. Chernobyl and coal            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Name one.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Just consider our commander in chief            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Not a poor decision in their eyes            01/01/70 00:00      
                              I doubt they have brushes            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 That is why nuclear generation is so appealing            01/01/70 00:00      
                        have you no Farmers market where you live ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                           We used to, back when I was a "farmer"            01/01/70 00:00      
   Not a Tesla engine            01/01/70 00:00      
      Tesla turbine            01/01/70 00:00      
         It's just a name ...            01/01/70 00:00      
            Possom on a Stick            01/01/70 00:00      
               Turtle tea            01/01/70 00:00      
               is that Okie spellinh            01/01/70 00:00      
                  I think Webster spells it with a leading \'O\'            01/01/70 00:00      
                     webster            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Opossum on the half shell?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Just Southern Courtesy            01/01/70 00:00      
                     How thoughful of you!            01/01/70 00:00      

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