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04/05/09 10:12
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#164342 - No requirements were suggested to him
Responding to: ???'s previous message
OP asks: Is there an IC for RF tranceiver?
Bing Logarth said:
That can be easily interfaced with 8051? I saw this nRF24L01 but it is not available here again, who has used this? And hows the performance? pls share some sample circuits with 8051


Is there an IC for RF tranceiver?
Bing Logarth said:
And huge...the price is just about the price of the device I am developing.


There are available modules here
Bing Logarth said:
That cast around $15 (Tx & Rx) But $15 costs 1/3 of the price of the device I am developing....I hope it be lowered to at least $5


4) Why Is it difficult to use? How do you test it?


5) What is SPI , going back to those summitek rf tranceivers, who has tried using them? is it really $6 for a receiver+transmitter module? how much is the shipping cost?

6) I am planning to use it to control led matrix display
A huge one, probably 250x250. And put it along the highway, ads will be entered via rf

And finally;

7) Xbee might be the answer Xbee is far more expensive than the taiwanese modules but i've read the datasheet and can readily be a substitute to max232...is this true? but I inquired about the product here and they are selling it for twice the srp on the web

What I said was:
Ap said:

Bing Logarth said:
going back to those summitek rf tranceivers, who has tried using them? is it really $6 for a receiver+transmitter module? how much is the shipping cost?


http://focus.ti.com/analog/do...e=swra112b

Yes they are cheap check www.sparkfun.com . Before you get proper advise you still havnt told us plenty of things

1) Your project ?
2) baud rate required ?
3) do you have RF measurement lab/instruments?
4) how secure the communication should be ?
5) OOK , FSK ,GFSK modulation etc.
etc etc etc...
6) When you say "here" where do you mean from Taiwan to------->(US?) ,how can we estimate shipping cost in such an instance?


-Ap


Does this means Per that I am forcing any solution on him??


Bing Logarth said:

Richard Erlacher said:
http://www.summitek.com.tw/product_i...uction.htm

When last I looked, some of them were under $4 US and about the size of your thumbnail.

RE

I am really tempted to buy, it only cost around $12 for a pair of receiver and transmitter module, but I can't seem to make up my mind. How do I assign a specific operating freq for the module? are modules the same as using Max232?


Ap Charles said:
Bing Logarth said:
Richard Erlacher said:
http://www.summitek.com.tw/product_i...uction.htm

When last I looked, some of them were under $4 US and about the size of your thumbnail.

RE

I am really tempted to buy, it only cost around $12 for a pair of receiver and transmitter module, but I can't seem to make up my mind. How do I assign a specific operating freq for the module? are modules the same as using Max232?



Ap Charles said:

Nordic Transceiver was far better

Tahe into account;

DC balancing of these receivers.
RF noise troubles.
synchronization problems.

lot more...

-Ap



Then Richard take that for :

Richard Erlacher said:
It's in the eye of the beholder, isn't it?
In what way was it better? How did this "improvement" impact cost?
RE



Ap Charles said:
Richard Erlacher said:
I think it actually lies in the holder
In what way was it better? How did this "improvement" impact cost? RE

Compare the two datasheets and find that out .The Taiwanees TX+RX bundle toy and the nRF transceiver.
OP didnt answer his requirements , facilities , quantity etc . So I cant comment on that . What I can suggest is which is better and which not .
-AP


And you people need explanation which is better >>among the two<< and which is not for that probably remote display data update/telemetry application? . Keep into account till now the OP has told us , he is unable to buy a complete workable module for such an outdoor application . Looking at the Ops experience and his lay man ship .I pointed out to leave this summitek.com modules for his outdoor / telemetry application as a little more smart Handel able solution >>Among the two<< looks like more feasible , as those summitek.com modules would be a pitfall for this display board application and it would be really difficult to get those modules work in industrial environments.

Now Richard , asks to let the novise decide for himself which is a better solution for him. Richard if he was that capable enough he wouldn’t have come to this forum . He want advise between the two, or as compared with the summitek.com low cost toys. He needs an educated guess about what possibly could be a workable solution ?

Now I am given a ride here .

Andy Neil said:
Richard Erlacher said:
In what way was it better? How did this "improvement" impact cost? RE

Richard is right: there is no such thing as "better" alone: "better" just means that it more closely fits the requirements - and, as you say, the requirements are unknown!
Therefore it is impossible to say which is "better"

Ap Charles said:
Compare the two datasheets and find that out .The Taiwanees TX+RX bundle toy and the nRF transceiver.

But if he wants a toy, then the Taiwanese one is better!

The nRF is clearly a more advanced product - but that doesn't necessarily make it "better" for this particular application.

OP didnt answer his requirements , facilities , quantity etc .

So neither you nor anyone else can say what is "better" or "best".

So I cant comment on that .

So don't make such comments, then!

What I can suggest is which is better and which not .

No, you can't - because neither you nor anyone else knows what constitutes "best" for this particular application.

All you can do is to point out the advantages and disadvantages of the two - then the OP can decide which constitutes "best" for his particular (unspecified) requirements.


In the first place , who said Richard is wrong ? . There are scads of modules / chip level designs out there , it is impossible to decide which is a better and which not . What can be done here is a comparative analysis between what capabilities OP have and, should be discouraged encouraged accordingly , . That too from what he has in his mind . It wasn’t me who provided the nRF part it was OP ? . It wasn’t me who provided the summitek.com link it was Richards . I compared between the two and helped the newbie with what among the two looks reasonable and trouble free . But No , even an analysis is taken sarcastic here . Do you want the forum to leave a newbie to decide which is better among the two for him , for that telemetry like requirement project .

Per has his own angle of thinking many people have , and on is free to do that:

Per Westermark said:
We do imformation solutions where the sign may receive the new data hours, days or possibly weeks before the intended switch. Transfer speeds may not be an important issue. A way more important issue may be the required transmission distances.

Advanced always better? A military jet is more advanced than a stunt plane. Do you think the heavy jet has a chance matching a stunt plane? A passenger plane is more advanced than a little Piper. Would it automatically be a better plane for initial training of new pilots? Advanced is just one dimension of a very multidimensional cube. An advanced module using a restricted frequency would even be an illegal module.

Ap said:
Who asked you [...]

Interesting question. Is any user on this forum personally questioned?

Ap said:
get your ears /eyesite checked


Ap said:
[...] you wont make such ridiculous comments [...]

That above sentence seems to be only aimed at one thing: Picking a fight!

You way too often manages to get in fights.


For an outdoor telemetry like application its done usually from a remote link and directional antennas (if people have time they can take their loggers near the sign board and upload data accordingly). Speed could be an issue you cannot ignore there are no hard n fast rules .
Then you try to teach me like a child ‘that military stuff’ according to your own philosopy which fits you well .

Per Westermark said:

“Advanced always better? A military jet is more advanced than a stunt plane. Do you think the heavy jet has a chance matching a stunt plane?


You tell me does anyone takes a stunt plane in war and show stunts there . You take it for granted that OP wants to do stunts , hence leave him to decide what ever he feel like.

Per Westermark said:

A passenger plane is more advanced than a little Piper. Would it automatically be a better plane for initial training of new pilots? Advanced is just one dimension of a very multidimensional cube. An advanced module using a restricted frequency would even be an illegal module.”


Would a little piper be a better plane to take 100+ people? . You give it a new look to this multidimensional cube .

What does this means , a Philosophy applies all way round mould it as per your requirements.


Now after this you didn’t stop you go further as you have gone with in the previous GSM thread to establish what yore viewpoint is right.

Per said:

Ap said:
Who asked you [...]

Interesting question. Is any user on this forum personally questioned?

Ap said:
get your ears /eyesite checked


Ap said:
[...] you wont make such ridiculous comments [...]

That above sentence seems to be only aimed at one thing: Picking a fight!

You way too often manages to get in fights.


Fault finding is easy dear ? you very cleverly quoted an summed the remarks to PROVOKE Andy further ? . And you try to snub me with looking at only one dimension of your multi dimension cube. See what meanings you changed with your this post!

Per Westermark said:

Ap said:
Who asked you [...]

Interesting question. Is any user on this forum personally questioned?


Exact meaning was:
Ap said:

Andy Neil said:

Ap Charles said:
Compare the two datasheets and find that out .The Taiwanees RF-TX + RF-RX bundle toy and the nRF transceiver.

But if he wants a toy, then the Taiwanese one is better!
The nRF is clearly a more advanced product - but that doesn't necessarily make it "better" for this particular application.


Who asked you and how are you assuming he wants a TOY looks like you use those Taiwanees RFTX + RFRX extensively. Now you state it "The nRF is clearly a more advanced product " isnt ADVANCED product a BETTER .


But you picked up sentence that fitted you well . I am saying to suggest within limits, not leaving OP to keep guessing where his pocket is almost empty?.

Andy gives his statement , detracting my viewpoint between the summitek.com part and the Nordic ,by trying to make that a general view pint un necessarily. It is well known that the analysis I did was in between OOK/FSK module and Nordic part only . Did I presented the GLOBAL view that Nordic is the only one? Show me where? And Why do you think so ?

Again Per finds a fault :

Per Westermark said:

Ap said:
get your ears /eyesite checked



Exact meaning was:

Ap said:

Andy Neil said:

OP didnt answer his requirements , facilities , quantity etc .

So neither you nor anyone else can say what is "better" or "best".
So I cant comment on that .

So don't make such comments, then!


Who is commenting ? . It was w.r.t COST COST COST , get your ears /eyesite checked.



He doesn’t wants to take my particular comparison between the two but , wants to present his own Omni dimensional viewpoint , was that viewpoint under discussion? . I said COST to remind him OP cannot afford to listen to your Omni viewpoint.

Per again shows only one dimension of his cube:


Ap said:
[...] you wont make such ridiculous comments [...]


What happened was:
Ap said:

Andy Neil said:

What I can suggest is which is better and which not .

No, you can't - because neither you nor anyone else knows what constitutes "best" for this particular application.
All you can do is to point out the advantages and disadvantages of the two - then the OP can decide which constitutes "best" for his particular (unspecified) requirements.

Ap said:

O Yes , the ISM band is damn CHOKED ,the more advanced the module + protocols the better it performs. Those 433MHz modules doesn’t works in proximity to cell phones plenty of times and you are there to make unnecessary comments do you have any experience in RF module design? . Have you ever heard of FHSS, DSSS ? if yes you wont make such ridiculous comments in favor of those ASK /FM modules .
-AP




Here again who is talking about the Global view point when in the first place it wasn’t asked for? Or I didn’t presented that to the the OP but a simple educated guess what looks more applicable and trouble free .

Per now how many times were you honest enough to point Erik making blatant remarks . He has done this a whole lot of timed. Did you find the time to tell him not to do that and write sanely. He keeps calling people to get their eyesight checked , Off rockers , get out of design etc etc are few to name . Did you read his violent Why-O-Why , Male cow manure ??? , or you simply doesn’t have courage to tell him? . If you didn’t have the courage to point him simply don’t point that to me either .

PS: Erik no personal remarks but a reference to the context , sorry if you find this not Good .


Per Westermark said:
I have seen his posts for several years on the Keil forum, so I think I do have some idea what they look like.

One cornerstone seems to be that "best" is something completely different between people.

Best is really something you factor out from analysing a very complex hypercube.

- Best cost?
- Best performance?
- Best power consumption?
- Best quality?
- Best form factor?
- "Right" features?
- "Right" interfaces?
- "Right" rugging?
- Fastest to market?
- Legal in all intended countries?
- Known to ship with good documentation and support?
- Experience of previous products/solutions from same supplier?
- Future extendability?
- Availability of samples instantly?
- Availability of production quantities at required production start?
- Availability 10 years from now?
- Availability of firmware updates?
- Required cost to certify product?
- Warranty conditions?
- ...

That is why people on forums spends time asking follow-up questions to try to establish which factores that are important to the requester.

And that is also why forum answers normally supply suggestions, together with motivations to the strength of the suggested products/solutions, allowing the requester to match these strenghts to the real requirements.

I have at times spent extreme amounts of time trying to figure out all relevant factors for selecting a specific solution or product, just to later find out that I did miss something critical. It really isn't easy to find the "best" solution. And to do it based on an almost total lack of feedback in a web forum is almost impossible.



Good that you rely on Forums on that . But I ask manufacturers direct , not my fault .

Per Westermark said:

You tend to be a bit impatient. As soon as you see one solution, you push that solution as "good" or possibly even "best", instead of suggesting it as one possible solution, while telling the requester why you thinks the solution is to be recommended, or should be considered.

If you qualify your answers with: "If you intended xxx then I would recommend that you do yyy because of zzz" then you will not get any conflicting responses from Andy. Possibly addendums.


I feel the other way round . You both don’t try to understand what is written . And try to present you Omni viewpoint , whether its asked by some OP or not but you will try to present it your way . What push the solution and all that . I only made an analysis between the the two modules as stated by OP and as stated by Richerd . Did I provide him any other than his ASKED part number show me where? .

Per Westermark said:
Ap Charles said:
In your previous thread you say:

" We do imformation solutions where the sign may receive the new data hours, days or possibly weeks before the intended switch. Transfer speeds may not be an important issue. A way more important issue may be the required transmission distances"

Doesnt this depends on application to application ? , as you dont know OPs application it cannot be commmented.

-Ap


Exactly my point. You brought up bandwidth as a problem. I responded by saing that bandwidth may not need to be an important factor, as indicated by the sentence I now underlined in the quote. And both Andy and I notes that the best choice will depend on the OP's application, in which case we can't simply say which solution is best.

Listing a large number of RF manufacturers isn't really helpful. Either post links to their sites and have the OP spend his time reading through all the information, or post information about your experiences with them. And you obviously can't ask me what fits the OP's bill. Remember that the value of a specific solution to the requester may be completely different from your take on the same solution.


You hear what you want to hear : I quoted this

Ap said:

Per Westermark said:

Since a display the size mentioned is very expensive, the "best" solution may possibly be an industrial PC with whatever WLAN interface that works best for every specific installation. Possibly WiMax? Or the signs may be located in situations where they will not be in range for any short-range wireless solutions, instead requiring more traditional solutions based on GPRS, 3G or similar. If the sign isn't showing graphics, it may even be enough to settle for SMS or MMS to transfer the data... The OP may have started this thread based on an assumption. That assumption may possibly be wrong. Being bombarded with alternatives, he might find that he either isn't interested to go ahead with the project, or that completely different solutions may be more advantageous to use. We can't know - only suggest. But one think we can know is that "best" is not an absolute fact.



In your previous thread you say:

" We do imformation solutions where the sign may receive the new data hours, days or possibly weeks before the intended switch. Transfer speeds may not be an important issue. A way more important issue may be the required transmission distances"

Doesnt this depends on application to application ? , as you dont know OPs application it cannot be commmented.

-Ap


Per Westermark said:


Exactly my point. You brought up bandwidth as a problem. I responded by saying that bandwidth may not need to be an important factor, as indicated by the sentence I now underlined in the quote. And both Andy and I notes that the best choice will depend on the OP's application, in which case we can't simply say which solution is best.


Do read your comments again ! . And don’t imagine solutions for OP , let him stay within his limits .You were Nagging me when I try to say which among the two modules could be a better solution >>Between those two<< . Do take into account we cannot ask OP to use all what is their in our head but explain him which among the solution he is trying to use is a better one? . I have 100 examples to compare so many modules will this help OP in anyways what he is not even ready to buy a 50$ solution .

Per Westermark said:


Listing a large number of RF manufacturers isn't really helpful. Either post links to their sites and have the OP spend his time reading through all the information, or post information about your experiences with them. And you obviously can't ask me what fits the OP's bill. Remember that the value of a specific solution to the requester may be completely different from your take on the same solution.


OP can google those names for himself ! . I have NO Take on his solution , he is not ready to spend and he asked “he wasn’t able to make up his mind” between the summitek.com parts and >>HIS<< earlier suggested >>Nordic part<< . I don’t do Imagination work for OP . I simply said if he wants to choose one from those two , the Nordic looks better than the summitek.com part .

That’s all there is to it . Richard correctly says not to waste time on this.


Bye
-AP


List of 91 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
Is there an IC for RF tranceiver?            01/01/70 00:00      
   I am sure there is - but            01/01/70 00:00      
      Its no trouble, he can just get one made for him            01/01/70 00:00      
         :)            01/01/70 00:00      
   sample circuits with 8051            01/01/70 00:00      
      Modules are expensive            01/01/70 00:00      
         Some modules are not so expensive            01/01/70 00:00      
   Have a look at these ...            01/01/70 00:00      
      There are available modules here            01/01/70 00:00      
          1/3 of the price of the device , how many you require?            01/01/70 00:00      
         Why being afraid? You have the people...            01/01/70 00:00      
         Economies of scale            01/01/70 00:00      
         The first one will cost about half a million $US            01/01/70 00:00      
            Those Taiwanese 433 MHz modules            01/01/70 00:00      
               support            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Why?            01/01/70 00:00      
                     How do you test it?            01/01/70 00:00      
      Do they offer sample            01/01/70 00:00      
      There are similar rf modules here            01/01/70 00:00      
         RF is never that simple!            01/01/70 00:00      
         Nordic Transceiver was far better            01/01/70 00:00      
            It's in the eye of the beholder, isn't it?            01/01/70 00:00      
               I think it actually lies in the holder            01/01/70 00:00      
                  No such thing as "better"            01/01/70 00:00      
                     O really            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Why always pick fights?            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Who piks it            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Impatient            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Better is also not a Toy solution            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    You are still focusing on a single track            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       No single track            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          OP's requirements not always identical to yours            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             No requirements were suggested to him            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Richard is correct            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   I feel your English is direct translation of your            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      My words are that we do not know            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         My words ..            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Still a bit quick            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               Quick ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  upload and upload            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Ok            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Is this the one Per            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Richard is correct            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      how does it feel            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         how does it feel .... great            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            in the eye of the beholder            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               beholders eye            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            hi-tech solutions?!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               let me break my fast this time            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Comparative analysis            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Cost            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        Straining at gnats            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     It looks fiction            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        dismissive            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           Dont call it dismiss but preference            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              knowing what the OP is trying to do            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 Just give it a look (Modified)            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    No club            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    nRF24L01            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       one point missed            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          That's a different chip?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             Some people jump into the middle of threads            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    what does 'big' mean            01/01/70 00:00      
                        let's not waste our time            01/01/70 00:00      
                        We appear to be stuck at that language barrier again            01/01/70 00:00      
                     best ----            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Engineering is always about compromise            01/01/70 00:00      
   nRF24L01 with SPI only            01/01/70 00:00      
      and so are the old ones            01/01/70 00:00      
      what is spi?            01/01/70 00:00      
         Why not ask the vendor?            01/01/70 00:00      
         what is spi? here            01/01/70 00:00      
            futile            01/01/70 00:00      
               I am planning to use it to control led matrix display            01/01/70 00:00      
                  ... and 100 uA is enough to drive them?            01/01/70 00:00      
                     2kV            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Please be more particular regarding RF link needs            01/01/70 00:00      
                  And you're worrying about a few $ for the RF module?!            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Doesn't this whole tale smell like fiction?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Library decision: SF or Fantasy?            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Delusion            01/01/70 00:00      
                              i am starting 0 knowledge again            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 ok            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Now that is believable!            01/01/70 00:00      
                  a VERY ambitious newbie            01/01/70 00:00      
                     The electricity bills will be cheaper            01/01/70 00:00      
                        :)            01/01/70 00:00      
   TDA5200            01/01/70 00:00      
   Xbee might be the answer            01/01/70 00:00      
      but what is the question?            01/01/70 00:00      
         Cross-references            01/01/70 00:00      

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