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???
03/05/09 18:34
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#163110 - On that we can agree
Responding to: ???'s previous message
Per Westermark said:
First off, I think every project should be started without bias when looking for a processor to use. And in the same way, the requirements of the project should decide if assembler or C (or possibly something else) is the best choice. ...

I think the 8051 will be heavily used 10 years from now too, but I do not think anyone should select processor just because it belongs to family "x".


I've also used 8051, Z80, (not AVR) PIC16 (when it was a chip from General Instruments, not Microchip), ARM, x86, 68xx, 68xxx as well as 6502 types, 1802, the OLD PIC and, of course, the classic microcontroller, the 8048, along with the 8x300 which was probably the first RISC controller.

Back in '78, Scientific American carried an article on the 8748, which named it the first complete microcomputer on a chip. In that classic definition, they pointed out that it contained I/O, memory, and the processor logic all on a single IC. Almost concurrently with their release of the MC68000, in 1979, Motorola rolled out their 68705 and 68701 (EPROM versions of 6805 and 6801) which both had the same characteristics. The MC6801 had more or less the same characteristics as the Intel 805x, and both of them had on-board UARTs, which their predecessors had not.

That group, the ones with ROM, RAM, and I/O on-chip, were the first "single-chip microcomputers" and almost immediately began appearing in household appliances, mass storage devices, and a host of other things, as they were almost immediately cheaper to use than the logic that they replaced.

Those chips were designed to replace logic. They were dubbed "microcontrollers" to distinguish them from "microprocessors" which relied on extensive external resources.

Today's chips are designed to address a different need, namely the need to reduce firmware cost. That means that it's got to be made easy for the "sneaker-wearing, pepsi-drinking, unshaven wierdo who seldom bathes and most often doesn't even comb his neglected hair" that many managers envision when someone mentions SOFTWARE. Once the chips can incorporate terabytes of code and gigabytes of data space, and execute their instructions in a few tens of femtoseconds, the chips will be "at least plenty" as those programmers want. I just have to wonder how the chip designers are going to address the need for documentation.

RE


List of 76 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
NXP P89LPC936 Auxilary RAM            01/01/70 00:00      
   Compiler Cannot Save the Day At Runtime            01/01/70 00:00      
      I found it.....            01/01/70 00:00      
         Incorrect!            01/01/70 00:00      
            To be fair,...            01/01/70 00:00      
               Its good info to know...            01/01/70 00:00      
   how is it done in C?            01/01/70 00:00      
   Maybe you should try doing it ASM!            01/01/70 00:00      
      You should start a new thread on that!            01/01/70 00:00      
      Not in this case!            01/01/70 00:00      
         A compiler should support ALL MCU features ...            01/01/70 00:00      
            A compiler should translate the language            01/01/70 00:00      
               Still C - just not strict.            01/01/70 00:00      
            I didn't say that!            01/01/70 00:00      
               It is not that clean and clear            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Deviants are deviant            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Keil and SDCC need no macros ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Are you sure?            01/01/70 00:00      
                     That's probably correct, but ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                        A C compiler can map the hardware quite well            01/01/70 00:00      
                           compiler vendors are looking at the new processors            01/01/70 00:00      
                              I once mentioned that ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                           It's not what I'd choose, but it is a matter of perefernce            01/01/70 00:00      
                              As flash gets bigger, the code steps do too.            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Still not needed for other architectures            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 We will have to agree to disagree ... I guess            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Which single-clocker is cheaper than an ARM?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       RE: Which single-clocker is cheaper than an ARM?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       differs considerably from the classic microcontroller?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Horses for courses            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Always start each project by scanning the market            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             On that we can agree            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Maybe, but what are they comparing?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Did you actually look?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Yes, I did.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       it's a tradeoff            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Is it 2006 already?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Really?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                that's outright silly            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Maybe ... which is why it is not yet the case            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      the eyes of the beholder            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Look at it from another viewpoint for a moment            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          RE: I'm not the one to ask about IC prices            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             doesn't mean I'm totally in the dark            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Richard Erlacher has left the planet            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Maybe Andy's the one who's lost            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      I cannot believe you even looked at ARM            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         It's all relative            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Price doesn't directly follow processor size            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            What about performance?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Be specific please.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            You can use your own supplier            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               Your test simulates as 41.04us            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  RE: ARM compiles do not like byte-addressing            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     A typo on my part            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        Case of full unroll            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           ... and what does THAT ARM MCU cost?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              WHO CARES            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 Absolutely true!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              $5 or lower            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 My Simulation times were wrong.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    67% of your loop was your loop            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    re-written the loop in C            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       Try without loop counter            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          You're right!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             Similar trick with ARM7 would require 66.67MHz            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             60ns with no store instruction.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                25% speedup            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                   Actually, I found the for loop faster.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                      Compiler setting?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                         I made NO optimisation            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                            Avoid variable aliasing if you like high optimization levels            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                               The RealView compiler is very competent            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                  Yes, caching            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                                  Yes, caching            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                It's much easier with the 8-bit single-clocker            01/01/70 00:00      

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