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???
02/15/08 22:35
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#150911 - a couple of points ...
Responding to: ???'s previous message
Jan Waclawek said:
Richard Erlacher said:
If a developer chooses to protect his content, be it a CD or a CPLD or a microcontroller, by invoking the on-chip protection for his code, he's saying that the door is locked. Perhaps there's a society within which it is considered appropriate and legal to enter a locked space and examine or remove the contents, and appropriate them for one's own use. I know of no such culture, however.


And, do you know a society, where it is considered appropriate and legal to enter through an UNLOCKED door, and take what you want? I don't think that copying an UNLOCKED microcontroller or whatever is more ethical than copying a locked one.

In the "far east" it is apparently common practice, rather than being "frowned upon" or patently illegal as it is in the U.S. and most of Europe. It's not unheard-of, though, and, if your house is entered and property stolen, the offense is still "breaking and entering" even if nothing is stolen or disturbed, as what's broken is not the door, but the security that it represents.

There was, in recent years, a near certainty that if you sent a device to be manufactured in Taiwan, Korea, India, or the PRC, you'd have half-a-dozen competitors selling precise counterfeits of your product, often making it to the marketplace before your product. I don't know what that says about those nations' cultural biases regarding privacy, and property, but the fact that the majority of counterfeit CD's and DVD's are manufactured there should say something.


Your analogy does not apply to this case at all.

Don't get me wrong: I don't like, approve etc. it, but I accept the fact that this is a rough world and this happens all the time. If you believe that playing what you believe is a fair game will be rewarding somehow, please, be warned, this is not the case.

YMMV.

JW



I don't think we disagree in general, but ...

If you can't reverse-engineer a product without copying the internal firmware in an MCU, then you simply aren't smart enough to do the job. Now, that doesn't mean you're dumb, quite to the contrary, but it means that the designers were smart enough to make it sufficiently difficult, which is their job.

If you leave your car sitting by the cafe, where you're having a coffee, unlocked, with the keys in the ignition, running or not, and someone gets in and drives it around the area, using some of your fuel, perhaps, but not otherwise harming it, and puts it back where you left it, he's stolen your fuel, but, he's probably not harmed you very much. On the other hand, he's definitely committed auto theft, even though he returned the car. If you were so foolish as to contribute to this event, whether the car was returned or not, you've gotten less than you deserve.

Likewise, if someone steals YOUR firmware, even though he's not denied you the use of it, in any sense, he's definitely committed an offense for which he should be punished. If you left it, in the form of a CD containing all the details, on the table at the cafe where you were having a coffee, and your competitor chances upon it, then, again, you get what you deserve, if that much. Nothing he could do would be less than you deserve, even if he copies it in its entirety and then sends it to your boss, with falsified details of how he got it by bribing you.

If your managers allow the company's IP to be removed in any form from the company facility, e.g. to the cafe, it's on THEM. If your managers allow unauthorized people, including cleaning staff or whatever, to enter the facility where they might have access, it's on THEM. If managers tell you to hurry and not worry about security, it's on THEM. If they allow you to take the work home, and something undesirable happens to result in its compromise, e.g. your notebook is stolen or lost, it's on THEM. It is, after all, THEIR responsibility to protect the company's interests. It's just up to the coder to implement and to execute the company's security policies as management dictates.

OTOH, if you can reverse-engineer a product, as part of your hobby, or as part of your job, you should be able to do it without breaking and entering, i.e. without getting inside the private domain of the internal code. If you succeed, then you're within the legal. If, OTOH, you steal the code, even if it's just to disassemble and examine it, you're a thief.

RE





List of 71 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
Security-breaking threads            01/01/70 00:00      
   Mostly bad            01/01/70 00:00      
      put that in the rulse and ...            01/01/70 00:00      
   Reverse Engineering            01/01/70 00:00      
      Why would this be the case?            01/01/70 00:00      
         legal, maybe, but worthless            01/01/70 00:00      
      Reverse Engineering            01/01/70 00:00      
         locked doors            01/01/70 00:00      
            a couple of points ...            01/01/70 00:00      
               Thief?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Ironically the Chinese Wall            01/01/70 00:00      
                  IANAL, but...            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Are you sure?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  the law can be interpreted in many ways            01/01/70 00:00      
               by the time you'll decide...            01/01/70 00:00      
                  the short happy life of ... Jan Waclawek?            01/01/70 00:00      
                     you apparently don't understand my point, Richard            01/01/70 00:00      
                        It should be how to Protect Your MCU rather then h            01/01/70 00:00      
                        perhaps I do            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Fair use, security, and all that            01/01/70 00:00      
                              It's simpler than that            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 What harm?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    If you really want to do that            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       A greater harm            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Have you gone one assumption too far?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             Republicans, believe .... AIDS            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                mingling the issue            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Which link ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      find it yourself            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         You find it and Its IAR policy not yours            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            no, it is not, I'm sure            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               what an IAR in code ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  not witrh a Keil eval            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Thats company policy            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        I sure can make this decision that            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           Is leasing Compiler legal ? . I will never do that            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              I don't quite understand this..            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 That's why it requires no treatment here            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Would you?            01/01/70 00:00      
   Slap in the face!            01/01/70 00:00      
      Recovering lost code            01/01/70 00:00      
   Don't help pirates but...            01/01/70 00:00      
   FAQ            01/01/70 00:00      
   it sure is immoral to steal code            01/01/70 00:00      
      The morality of repairs.            01/01/70 00:00      
   I've done it legally and ...            01/01/70 00:00      
      Faulty logic            01/01/70 00:00      
         evidently you missed my exception            01/01/70 00:00      
            False statements            01/01/70 00:00      
               GPL as 'protection' LOL            01/01/70 00:00      
      Security through obscurity            01/01/70 00:00      
         other possibilities            01/01/70 00:00      
            Malund you come to conclusion very early !            01/01/70 00:00      
               Are you sure?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  OK, so let's circumvent this problem...            01/01/70 00:00      
               then why have you done so?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Did that link open your eyes            01/01/70 00:00      
                     I do not care, my code is worthless in hex            01/01/70 00:00      
         This one is on you, Craig ... the buck stops there            01/01/70 00:00      
            Competence.            01/01/70 00:00      
               I know of many 'unteachable'            01/01/70 00:00      
                  That's what put options are for ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Let's not promote fakery in the profession            01/01/70 00:00      
   Answer to the original question            01/01/70 00:00      

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