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???
10/02/10 13:04
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Msg Score: +3
 +3 Good Answer/Helpful
#178870 - Kitchen-table = home built with lacking tools/knowledge
Responding to: ???'s previous message
A "kitchen table programmer" is a programmer you build at home on your kitchen table, i.e. a device built by a hobbyist without proper equipment, and experience to design, built and test it to professional standards.

The problem is that a hobbyist with lacking knowledge will often start from a bad design since he/she doesn't have the knowledge/experience to figure out that the design is bad.

Next thing is that the hobbyist will - just like most other people - introduce errors. Sometimes because a component is replaced with something that was thought to be similar - but true knowledge about the circuit would have indicated that the replacement component was not similar for a critical parameter.

Third thing is that a hobbyist with lacking tools/experience does not know how to locate an error in the home-built equipment. Especially if the tools are also home-built and may also be badly working.

Fourth thing is that a hobbyist without proper tools may use mounting methods and screening methods that are not working well. So one day, the home built (kitchen table) device may seem to work. Another day, one of the connectors has a bad connection, or the neighbour is busy using his WLAN network resulting in open input signals picking up the noise like antennas.

A fifth problem is that a lot of hobbyists posts their "designs" on the net. They post it because they have spent a lot of time on the projects and want others to see how good they are. But a lot of their designs doesn't really work. They run out of time before catching all hardware problems and before having written the full software that would have shown logic errors in the design. They also present their device is positive terms since they describe their "baby". A more critical presentation of a home-designed device might instead have spent more time on describing what the device can _not_ do than trying to convince readers about all the things it can do.

20 years ago, most hobbyists picked up their ideas from electronic magazines, or they bought books containing 301 different circuits. But most of the time, the schematics where designed by smeone who where skilled "in the art". And most of the time, the different designs also had some grading on how hard/easy the project was. Today, most people pick up their designs from random web sites with zero knowledge about the sills of the designer - or of the skills of the person who "presented" the design.

Another issue is that when people found designs in electronics magazines, they could also often buy component kits, including a PCB. This greatly helps a hobbyist to manage to get something to work. Especially if the magazine article also contains a bit of build and test instructions. Things like: Before soldering the IC:s, connect power and verify the voltages at the following locations: xxx

List of 103 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
Very nice for third countries but...            01/01/70 00:00      
   My Advice            01/01/70 00:00      
   Today's top award for Stating The Blindingly Obvious...            01/01/70 00:00      
   Doesn't make sense            01/01/70 00:00      
      A microcontroller is a nice logic-chip tester            01/01/70 00:00      
         device in question is not for identifying unknown chips            01/01/70 00:00      
            Wasn't talking about linked device            01/01/70 00:00      
         IC logic still popular here(used)            01/01/70 00:00      
            sure, but            01/01/70 00:00      
               sure, but, but            01/01/70 00:00      
                  sure, but, but, but            01/01/70 00:00      
            Limitations            01/01/70 00:00      
               Areas of Doubt and Uncertainty            01/01/70 00:00      
                  I can imagine one case            01/01/70 00:00      
                     That would have different pinout            01/01/70 00:00      
                     what is all this about identifying chips            01/01/70 00:00      
                        See Richard's post            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Brute Force - The IC pins would curl up before finish            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Actually not too ahrd/expensive to detect chips            01/01/70 00:00      
                        But            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Of course            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Again, it depends on your goals            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Scope of project is important            01/01/70 00:00      
   It's more interesting            01/01/70 00:00      
   both of my old portable programmers do this            01/01/70 00:00      
      Is there codes?            01/01/70 00:00      
         What, exactly, are you looking for?            01/01/70 00:00      
            unknown is hard....known is easy?            01/01/70 00:00      
               it's possible, but not reliable to check for unknowns            01/01/70 00:00      
                  xeltex superpro            01/01/70 00:00      
                     be careful ... that was several revisions ago ...            01/01/70 00:00      
               RE: known IC logic for test is easy?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  unknown....            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Pardon??            01/01/70 00:00      
                     IF you can't recognize the part, THEN discard it!            01/01/70 00:00      
                     The most likely reason you'd want to do that ...            01/01/70 00:00      
         The code was compiled and in a library            01/01/70 00:00      
            Place..The code was compiled and in a library            01/01/70 00:00      
               Will that help?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  in the future...            01/01/70 00:00      
                     It's just a small-C compiler with intrinsics for SuperPro            01/01/70 00:00      
                        help??            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Can't you just go from first principles?            01/01/70 00:00      
                           If you want that software, you should contact XELTEK            01/01/70 00:00      
                               The code was compiled and in a library???            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Well, obvisouly!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 The hardware for this sort of thing is not rocket science            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    library binary            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       I can't purchase the expensive SuperPro            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          homemade            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             this makes no sense            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                missing??            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   no, I am not            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      not so fast ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         while all that is valid - to an extent            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            kitchen table...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               Kitchen-table = home built with lacking tools/knowledge            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  understand....            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Can often be solder problems            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      multiply            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         if you use that many ....            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            work's            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               because            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  You're right in large part, but ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     did NOT bring this up for any other reason            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  back...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Can have uC or PC as master - just different advantages            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        You'll need lots of storage.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           For what?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              You need storage for the 250K test vector sets            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     Yes, you have to do the work            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               "works (sic) flawlessly (sic)"            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               You haven't the means to determine that it works flawlessly            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  XOR normally easier than trying high-end drive + sampling            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     That does work if you have one functional part for "seed"            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        Can perform time calibrations without specific seed            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           None of this works with just an XOR            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              Just an XOR?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           These assertions look entirely wrong to me.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                              Read up on phase detectors and separate from lgic detect            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 Yes, I know about phase detectors, and in this case...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                    Learn, and it will not be irrelevant anymoer            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                       This stuff is still irrelevant until you know the type            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                          And the type covered again and again            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                             For the purposes described by the O/P it's not relevant            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                Already covered            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                   Until you have a way of ascertaining the ins and outs ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                      Obvious, but _you_ singled out propagation delay            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                         various but still MCS-51            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                            Difference hobby or commercial use            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                                               you caught a VERY important issue - and did not know            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                                 avoid kicthen table            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                               there is no way in hades ....            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                  Not even commercial testers are really commercial grade            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     emphasizing the above good post            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                     I'd guess the application is a bit different            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                        ah ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                                           Yes ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       It's always a tradeoff between time and money            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          e-bay??            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             If you find one and buy it ...            01/01/70 00:00      
   If you REALLY want one of these ... but one that works ...            01/01/70 00:00      
   not a defective chip, but ...            01/01/70 00:00      

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