??? 05/01/09 16:14 Read: times |
#164994 - Easy first when all parts of the chain are easy Responding to: ???'s previous message |
Richard Erlacher said:
Per Westermark said:
Richard Erlacher said:
We do have to cover both options, and, while the vector method is brighter with less power, the raster is, IMHO, easier to generate, particularly for complex images. The raster concept is very simple when looking at external hardware, but it is normally only easy to generate for static or semistatic (such as scrolling text) images. Moving video requires huge amounts of data. And it takes a lot of processing power to decompress an MPEG-encoded video stream. Directly rendering vectors or polygons into a frame buffer would normally require a very fast processor, low resolution or a graphics accelerator because of the large number of pixels involved to get a reasonable resolution. What has MPEG encoding to do with this clearly monochromatic application? One advantage of the rasterized display concept is that, by timing the pixels with a VCO, the deflection voltage can be used to time the pixels. That's essential, given that the display is to be on a room wall, and the alignment of the projector with the wall can be variable, and will almost always be non-perpendicular, meaning that the sweep velocity increases with deflection angle. Timing is almost always trivial. Computer hardware is quite good with timing. The problem is to get any data to display. That data would be either video (in which case MPEG is a good encoding) or the processor must render information in the video memory. Which requires a fast microcontroller or a graphics accelerator. A PC has ample power to do it, but currently no good output interface for the data, since the current technology isn't suitable for building a laser-based raster display connectable directly to the graphics card. Do not forget the problems with finding lasers suitable for a raster display, given the different requirements of a raster display. Right now, a laser projector can't light a larger area with any reasonably priced lasers. No need to discuss designs for the lasers 5 or 10 years into the future. So it is better to discuss the "now" instead of how trivial it is to work with a raster display requiring components that you can't buy. To build a laser-based raster display right now capable of lighting a suitable area (many home-built XY projectors can draw many square-meter big images without intensity problems, since they don't try to light an area), we would have to use multiple lasers taking care of parts of the image. Or we would have to get extremely (!!!) expensive, and hard-to-use lasers. How much does it matter how simple it is with a raster display, if you need to tripple the mains voltage to power the laser, and then cool away 100W+ to keep the laser cool enough that it still resonates? With luck, you may get away with Peltier elements (and remember how much power they require for each W of heat moved away) but with bad luck you may need really heavy-duty cooling. Richard said:
From what I can determine, the MCU would have no role other than to load the refresh RAM. The offset from perpendicular, at least in the longer sweep axis, would time the pixels AND drive the voice coil. And how do you think the MCU gets the data to refresh with? Richard said:
For the type of images that a laser projector is good at (given the limitation of a laser to do area fills without losing intensity and frame rate) a vector display is really excellent. Home-built vector displays maybe manages up to 5kpoints/seconds with a few exceptional home-built galvos reaching 15kpoints/second, while commercial systems manages 30k+. Within that physical limitaion, you can get very bright images with very low processor load from a vector display. A PC is normally not suitable because of the real-time requirements, but it can output the data to a microcontroller, and an 8051 or small ARM7 can manage to store one or more frames in RAM. A microcontroller can also manage to store full animations on a memory card, without having problems with either the total size of the data, or the bandwidth to extract it from the memory card.
The vector output system will basically form a graphics accelerator, because of the low-pass filtering introduced in the system when turning the mirrors to try and reach the next target point in the graph. And even as little as 8-bit data outputs will look like almost infinite resolution since the emitted data isn't gridded into a visible raster. Between the target coordinates, you will see smooth (but possibly not straight) lines, instead of the jagginess you get for diagonal lines on a raster display. Projection TV seems to do quite well with rasterized display. The "nice" feature is that one of the axes (assume the vertical, for now) can be swept at a relatively slow rate allowing the heavier components to be located on that platform, while the horizontal is swept by virtue of the rotating mirror, and controlled electronically. You are mixing technologies in your debate. Don't make too big analogies between a projection TV and a laser projector. A projection TV is basically a normal video projector (LCD, DLP, CRT, ...) projecting an image. It just a question of having a back-projection instead of a front-projection. I can take my projector and reconfigure it for back-projection (it will mirror the image) and replace the normal screen with one intended for back-projection. But that is irrelevant to a laser projector, since the laser projector does not light a surface, but render with a ray. It is similar to a CRT, but there are a number of differences, and - more importantly - we don't have suitable lasers yet for the task. A $1000 blue laser is fun to play with. And it is very dangerous to look at. But it still has a very low intensity if you need to light up a square meter of a wall. The efficiency of a 200W projector lamp in a LCD projector is quite low, but it does put out a significant number of W past the LCD and colors flters, ... Yes, the electron beam of a CRT also has very significant energy. But it is a bit easier to control, and you do have 10mm of glass between you and the beam in case the monitor fails to bend the beam. And the important thing: It is - with current technology - easy to produce an electron beam of suitable intensity. That is the reason why CRT displays have been in existence for so many years. With the current limitations of laser projectors, a XY-projector still has large advantages over a raster projector. Richard said:
So while CRT, LED, LCD or plasma technologies are excellent for implementing a raster display, we still have a bit to go until laser projects will be suitable for generic raster data. I'm pretty sure that will will reach a stage when it will be possible to build high-quality HD-resolution laser projectors for front or back projection. But we will need stronger lasers at an affordable price. For such a display, a rotating mirror is excellent. It is very easy to monitor a rotating mirror and instantly cut the laser output if the mirror isn't keeping the correct speed, thereby protecting from eye damage or fires. Keeping the speed of a spinning mirror constant is much more straightforward than dynamically moving two mirrors such that they don't leave the laser pointed where it could do harm. An AC-synchronous motor does that just fine. If the AC goes away ... well, so does the laser power. But I think you did not read what I wrote. It is irrelevant how easy it is to spin that mirror. To be meaningful, you still need suitable lasers. With the current technology, it is way more practical to do XY projection. Just because you have worked with raster displays doesn't make them the best since sliced bread. You concentrate on the trivial parts, while ignoring the big problem: What laser to use. Most people with a bit of mechanical and electronics skills reading this thread and wanting to build a laser projector can build an XY projector quite easily. And it will be fun and useable. A raster projector can also be built, but it would probably not be fun or useable, because of the problems with finding suitable lasers. How fun do you think it would be to build a laser projector displaying a 100x100mm picture on the wall? How fun do you think it would be with several square meters of real-time-generated output? Richard said:
Right now, the current state of the art - and the current state a hobbyist can reach - a raster display wouldn't be a good choice unless run at low resolutions - such as the limited vertical resolutions you can get away with for a text-only display with few text lines. Yes, and I think that's one point at which one could start, though there's no reason why it has to be text-only. There were monochrome raster-based text/graphic displays in the late '70's and I saw one that was driven by an Apple-][ microcomputer which had both text and graphics at the West-Coast Computer Fair in 1980, though I doubt it used a laser. It can't be that difficult, particularly now that we have lasers available, along with the ability to switch them on and off. Once again - you are ignoring the big thing: What laser to use, to supply the light for a raster display? 50 years ago, it was trivial to produce a strong enough electron beam. Then it was the electronics that was the weak link. For a laser projector, it isn't. It's the laser. So it really doesn't matter what people did with a CRT 50 years ago. We just do not have lasers available that are suitable for a raster display, unless you limit your resolution in one or both axes very significantly, or limit the output to a quite small area. Unless you can afford building a system with many small lasers driving a limited number of scan lines. But before you say: That's ok - do check the price of the lasers. And once more - a small micro can easily play with the galvos for a laser projector - it is easy to scroll pre-generated data. Richard said:
I'm not saying that the raster display is the ONLY way to go, but I don't think it can be dismissed. With the spinning mirror, all one needs is an index pulse to time the sweep. If the mirror provides the horizontal deflection, then the vertical deflection can be slow and quite narrow. It must, of course, be very precise and extremely accurate. No, it is not the only way to go. But it is currently not even a good way to go, for most applications. If I can project a 100x100mm raster image on the wall with a laser projector, it would be way easier to use a 19" cheap LCD. If the projection part was the required magic, then the cheapest LCD projectors would win several times over for emitting raster data. But a cheap home-made XY projector can do what the 19" LCD or the cheap LCD projector can't. Anyone interested in building a laser projector is most likely interested in letting it do what no other technology can match. So they are most likely interested in an XY-modulated projector. |