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???
10/27/10 17:47
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#179374 - Still no linearity claimed. Just "more out of spec bader"
Responding to: ???'s previous message
Having 10uF instead of 1uF is 10 times larger than datasheet specifies.
Having 10uF instead of 0.1uF is 100 times larger than datasheet specifies.

There is still no one here who have involved bit error rates or anything.

But still no linearity involved in anyones argument.

All that has been noted is that smaller deviations from nominal values tends to mean less than large deviations from nominal values - components are normally designed to have safety margins for non-critical component values.

But safety margins are introduced to support ageing, manufacturing tolerances, temperature coefficients etc. So chip while manufacturers must make sure there are safety margins, they don't have any reason to introduce safety margins of ten or 100 times.

If you do care about statistics, you will find that for a random circuit, a larger deviation from rated intervals will increase the probability of misfunction or component failures. That goes for deviations in temperatures, supply voltages, resistance values, capacitances, magnetic fields, ...

So it can be seen as worse to have 100 times too large capacitor than to have a 10 times too large capacitor. And it is possible that both circuits does work if you test them. But how to test? Test for full supply range? Test for full temperature range? Test for time from power-on until stable voltages? Test for fault percentage after one billion power cycles? Test for temperature increase from short-circuiting outputs? Test that Vcc never gets higher than the max value from the datasheet during startup?

In the case of a MAX232A with 0.1uF capacitors, it's likely that Maxim has designed the chip to work well with 1uF capacitors just to make sure that it can directly replace a MAX232 even if someone forgets to change the capacitors. But what incentives would Maxim have for supporting 10uF capacitors, which could potentially increase the initial load on the output transistors during a short-circuit?

In the end, the probability of problems is larger with 10uF capacitors with a MAX232A than with a MAX232 (ignoring that MAX232 in SO-16W socket has 0.1uF). But no linearity exists. And the big problem is that many times it isn't possible to test if it is ok to use too large capacitors, because it isn't possible to know the critical parameters. We don't have any Spice files and other design documentation for the internals of the chip.

And ending up with a situation where we can't just conect an instrument and measure how well a component value works, all we can do is switch to the empirical knowledge that there is a general, non-linear, rule that the further away from documented component values, the worse it generally is.

Looking at the Maxim datasheets for MAX222/242 that have a shutdown feature (designed for 0.1uF capacitors), the datahseet specifies max 250us startup time with the rated 0.1uF capacitors. Looking at the plotted graph, it can be deduced that the voltages have reached about 90% after about 150us with 0.1uF capacitors, but requires about 1ms with 1uF capacitors. And with 1uF it takes about 3ms until the chip has full voltage swing. With 10uF instead, a quick-booting processor might send the first characters with out-of-spec voltage swing.

List of 40 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
need help getting started with AT89S52            01/01/70 00:00      
   Buy programming "cable" from Atmel            01/01/70 00:00      
      Is it Parallel Port given in there            01/01/70 00:00      
         Wrong path            01/01/70 00:00      
            path suggestions            01/01/70 00:00      
               using P89V51RD2            01/01/70 00:00      
                  FlashMagic            01/01/70 00:00      
         Make it happen...            01/01/70 00:00      
            have a look at this one            01/01/70 00:00      
         COM1 will do            01/01/70 00:00      
            ISP circuit for P89v51rd2            01/01/70 00:00      
               not informative            01/01/70 00:00      
                  how about this one            01/01/70 00:00      
                     how about where are the capacitors            01/01/70 00:00      
                        about deviation from topic            01/01/70 00:00      
                           not useable            01/01/70 00:00      
                              wiht names for pins of caps            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Chat forum            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Use correct capacitor values.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    more wrong caps            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       capacitor values            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          what about the plug??            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             i dont get you            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                no - maybe            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       What is worse?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          The main objective of communications            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             reasons for not using max 233            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Cost?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Well, I search for you and I found...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          this            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             errors from over-filtering?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             it's a linear error?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Don't introduce "linear" in the equation            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   The original question was not answered            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      'worse' is not an absolute word            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         It's not ridiculous            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            Don't try to redefine the purposes of old posts.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                      Still no linearity claimed. Just "more out of spec bader"            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                         Not obvious            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                            I agree            01/01/70 00:00      

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