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???
06/15/07 05:26
Modified:
  06/15/07 05:33

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#140816 - Just look at the body of work ...
Responding to: ???'s previous message
Jeff Post said:
Richard Erlacher said:
I think the reason 'C' is so popular is because it is widely used in educational institutions, heaven knows why. Pascal was designed for education, and it does that pretty well. 'C', on the other hand, discourages rigor and discipline, both of which are necessary for any useful work.

On the contrary, C requires rigor and discipline precisely because it is so easy to shoot oneself in the foot. But which would you rather have, a car that can do 130 mph (whether you need it or not) and can accelerate like a bat out of hell, or a car with limiters that has a max speed of 20 mph and accelerates like grandma in her wheelchair?

When I need a hotrod, I write in ASM and comment it liberally. I almost never sit down and start coding just because I have an idea. I document it first. If people wrote things in ASM rather than C++, or whatever, it wouldn't take Windows 3-5 minutes or even longer to respond to a keystroke or mouse click that should stop everything and respond immediately. Console commands should produce a response within no more than 1/30 second on the slowest computer that runs that OS.

If everyone were disciplined enough to delay writing the code until the requirements were documented and signed, and then wrote the code to match the reuquirements...

That's pretty much the definition of a good programmer, isn't it? And it applies no matter what language one uses.

Then why do so many people think they can program without doing that?

but too much code is written before the requirements are agreed upon and too little of that code is justified.

That's the fault of ignorant PHBs, not programmers.

...its real effect was to convince me that 'C' was not a tool I'd find acceptable for use in professional-quality work, and that was because it disocurages rigor and discipline.

See above. C encourages and requires discipline. Any "programmer" lacking discipline should not code in C, and IMHO should not code at all.



On that last point, we are in full agreement!

When we were setting up my ISP, I had to look at a lot of 'C' code written by people you'd have guessed were pretty good programmers, as they brought LINUX to the world and did pretty well at it. However, I found lots of problems, not with the executability, but with the maintainability. Some of the code had been removed and replaced, leaving the v0.01 comments in version 22.8, which came YEARS later. Syntax was impenetrable, probably because someone felt he had to avoid increasing the line count, and the code formatting wasn't pretty either.

Documentation, where it existed, often omitted key words, such as NOT.

Most of the "bad" useable code I've seen has been full of evidence of undisciplined and lazy practice. It's sad, but it's true.

The problem is that writing code is already too easy when one is working in ASM. HLL's promise to make things easier, and, I suppose that with large programs, e.g. the IRS' automated examination system, or a really large, comprehensive operating system, the aid an HLL gives is of value, but not if it allows undisciplined individuals, those who lack the patience and discipline to do things properly, to sell the sort of rubbish we see every day.

RE



List of 87 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
Sunday Quiz - Bit Flipper in C            01/01/70 00:00      
   Here's My 41 Bytes            01/01/70 00:00      
      Very nice, but call it 43 (explained herein)            01/01/70 00:00      
   Sunday Quiz Update            01/01/70 00:00      
      OK Then 39 Bytes...            01/01/70 00:00      
         Oh my goodness            01/01/70 00:00      
            If you want performance...            01/01/70 00:00      
         More bytes, but ...            01/01/70 00:00      
   OK Then 38 Bytes            01/01/70 00:00      
      Comma            01/01/70 00:00      
         36! Holy cow! Very nice!            01/01/70 00:00      
            my 36            01/01/70 00:00      
               Non-conforming            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Wow! 34! |<3WL! :-)            01/01/70 00:00      
                     ???            01/01/70 00:00      
                        KEWL = cool in l33t :-) (worse than SMS...)            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Wow is right!!! plus another 36            01/01/70 00:00      
         Broken            01/01/70 00:00      
            C doesn't try to save you ...            01/01/70 00:00      
            Not Broken            01/01/70 00:00      
   look for samples of FFT code ...            01/01/70 00:00      
   this is competing to make the worst possible            01/01/70 00:00      
      it's certainly not the solution...            01/01/70 00:00      
         correction            01/01/70 00:00      
            Unless you're "porting" ...            01/01/70 00:00      
               there are situations...            01/01/70 00:00      
                  au contraire            01/01/70 00:00      
                     overlayed variables            01/01/70 00:00      
                        non-religious reasons and debunking some            01/01/70 00:00      
                           I doubt that            01/01/70 00:00      
                              now try            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 with the error or without?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    the 49 is a compare the 48 is coding time            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       47, 48, 49            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          for such a cause as            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Still more            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             one more point for Pascal            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Language and vocabulary contributions            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Language and vocabulary contributions            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                Yes, it's much more "self-documenting"            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Singular?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 well... around 5 minutes            01/01/70 00:00      
                              It's not funny            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 this is why I don't like the "modern" over-windowe            01/01/70 00:00      
         Tastes            01/01/70 00:00      
      Skill in reading            01/01/70 00:00      
         in other words: because there are burglars detecti            01/01/70 00:00      
            That's why one should use ASM and not 'C'            01/01/70 00:00      
               nope            01/01/70 00:00      
                  are you perfect?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  That's why the documentation is necessary            01/01/70 00:00      
                     the old argument from C haters            01/01/70 00:00      
                     One page of comments per statement?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        If it's to be understood later on ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                           if I have to explain my choice of syntax in C, the            01/01/70 00:00      
                              The point is to show why, and not why-not            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 I post, you 'reply'            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Sorry, I still need more help on this            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Never had to do that ... and for good reason.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Maybe just one unclear point now            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Well, if it were up to me ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Thanks            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          I hope you're not missing my point ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             You explained yourself clearly            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Upside down            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Just look at the body of work ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Nature of commercial software            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Maybe it's more like a 747 vs. a bicycle            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    on driving and "coding"            01/01/70 00:00      
         even Mr. K agrees            01/01/70 00:00      
   Post Mortem #1            01/01/70 00:00      
      I object            01/01/70 00:00      
      Post Mortem #1.1            01/01/70 00:00      
         both translations are "strange"            01/01/70 00:00      
            Uninitialised?            01/01/70 00:00      
      20 bytes.            01/01/70 00:00      
         teaching the compiler...            01/01/70 00:00      
            Maybe for HLLs, but not for C ...            01/01/70 00:00      
               I know this is the praxis....            01/01/70 00:00      
         incorrect/incomplete statement            01/01/70 00:00      
   Post Mortem #2            01/01/70 00:00      
      Vote: 1. Yes 2. Dont care            01/01/70 00:00      
      modify it!!!!            01/01/70 00:00      
      vote            01/01/70 00:00      
         methink            01/01/70 00:00      
   its interesting that C            01/01/70 00:00      
      I like your proposal            01/01/70 00:00      

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