| ??? 11/26/06 20:07 Read: times |
#128523 - It's not a perfect world ... ... Responding to: ???'s previous message |
Andy Peters said:
A couple of comments:
None of the FPGA synthesis tools cost in the six-figure range. Mentor Precision and Synplicity were both about US$5K/yr last I checked. It's the ASIC tools that cost a hundred large per seat per year. And for your hundred large, you get the direct phone number of someone who can actually help you with your questions. Sadly, that's not necessarily the case any longer. You get a phone number, but (a) you may not be able to understand the person at the other end, and (b) they may not be able to help you even if you can. Now, as for the price of FPGA tools. Ever since I started doing FPGAs (XC3000 w/ViewLogic, back in the early 90s), I could never understand why the tools were so expensive ("expensive" defined as a couple thousand dollars per seat, plus FlexLM aggravation). After all, the tools were simply a means to an end: without using the tools, you can't design for the chips, so you're not going to buy any chips. That exact argument had been raised on comp.arch.fpga easily over ten years ago. The usual response was, "for your two grand a year, you get our Xcellent support." If you think about it, charging some "nominal" fee aided the FPGA vendors by screening out the amateurs and others who'd chew up support hotline time. The software cost showed that you were "serious." Of course everyone knew that the Big Companies buying fab-runs of chips a month got the tools for free (and probably the direct phone number of a support person who knew his stuff). Their support back then was as poor as their tools. Back in the late-80's/early-'90's they pushed XACT with that pitiful SILOS simulator. Their support was probably better back then, but, then, so was everyone else's. But at some point, Brands A and X both realized that they'd sell more low-end chips in small quantities (making a larger profit, too) if they had a low-cost, or even free, version of the tools available. (I think this is called "listening to customers.") After all, not everyone is working on the latest/greatest chips. So they released "Web Pack" (what a stupid name) software, which supports most of the chips and has (by now) pretty much all of the extra stuff the full packages have. The caveat is that if you have problems, you have to file a "web case" and hope the support people can help you. If you're working with the newest/most-complicated chips (V4/V5 w/PPC core, etc) or if you want extra features (MicroBlaze core, ChipScope, etc) then you pay for it, which is reasonable. (I think this boils down to "don't charge for things the customer won't use.") I've found that their software is getting more twisted up every time they have a new release. They ignore customer complaints (e.g. they haven't yet resolved a netlist bug I pointed out in v4.3) and they've completely messed up the GUI in this last release. They don't track context as well as in v6, either. What's more, if you have to go back and modify something that uses the old '2000 series, or the '3000 or '4000 series, you're out of luck unless you can remember how to make it happen with XACT. One mustn't forget, too, that in 1991, while we were using 1k-2k units/year, we had to pay ~$400 for an XC3090. I don't do ASICs so I have no idea of how that EDA market works. I think, though, that there is a much larger requirement for correct-ness of results there, as an ASIC spin is remarkably expensive.
-a I guess I'd better go look for my old set of XACT floppies ... RE |
| Topic | Author | Date |
| Megabucks EDA tools or free ones for HDL? | 01/01/70 00:00 | |
| Makes sense | 01/01/70 00:00 | |
| balance | 01/01/70 00:00 | |
| well cadence were crying into their beer last wek | 01/01/70 00:00 | |
| What if it happened to you? | 01/01/70 00:00 | |
| Not happy, but shedding no tears either. | 01/01/70 00:00 | |
| It's the plague of the megacorporation | 01/01/70 00:00 | |
| well we pay £103,000 per seat per year | 01/01/70 00:00 | |
| do what? | 01/01/70 00:00 | |
| Mega-units | 01/01/70 00:00 | |
| Boo-hoo :-( | 01/01/70 00:00 | |
| They want their cut | 01/01/70 00:00 | |
| Weve come to an arrangement. | 01/01/70 00:00 | |
| Nice one | 01/01/70 00:00 | |
| re: arrangement | 01/01/70 00:00 | |
They wont sue, same as banks | 01/01/70 00:00 | |
| FPGA EDA tools | 01/01/70 00:00 | |
| It's not a perfect world ... | 01/01/70 00:00 |